Thoughts on the end of my streak as delegate

[Ransium]

Hi Everyone, I’m the delegate of Forest. As many of you know from the black riders posting my 8 year streak as delegate was recently ended. I wanted to talk about what the streak meant to me, a few thoughts on the raider/defense dynamics, and nation states as a whole.

First a little history, I was actually delegate of Forest for several months before my streak officially began. At the time Forest was founderless and shortly before I became delegate there was a successfully raid, I believe by the black hawks. I enjoyed the community of Forest but none of us really wanted to be a pawn in the raider/defender games so I convinced the community of Forest to refound. On a side note, I doubt my refounding effort would be successful these days, likely Forest would have shared the fate of hippideom/hippy haven, but I suppose I digress.

So after refounding Forest, why was I able to be delegate of a region of medium to large region for 8 years? I think it was because I tried to make Forest fun, encouraging the growth of the community, and in general making Forest be the region that most of the natives wanted it to be. Are their delegates that do more for their region? Of course, NewTexas is one obvious example... But anyway I’d like to think I was the sort of player that the community of NationStates at large should encourage to continue to play to make the game more fun for everyone.

Obviously NationStates isn’t really designed to reward players all that much in-game. Personally, I was rewarded with the support of my community, whatever small power comes from being the delegate of a medium to large region, and I have to say my streak. I felt that my streak was a way that others quickly could see that I objectively had the leadership skills to keep my region happy with me for eight years. I felt like it was the reward that nationstates was giving me, in its own weird, nationstates way. It was also a nice way for people to quickly identify the age and stability of Forest, and therefore helpful for recruiting and embassy proposals.

So I’m sure someone will say, ‘Well, Ransium there were raid attempts in the past, why didn’t you do something if your streak was so precious to you?’ Well, what was I supposed to do? Lock Forest? That would be the slow death of my little nationstates community. Make the delegate have no administrative powers? I have feeling the raid was more about my streak, than decorating Forest with a harry potter flag. Sign on at every up date for eternity? I liked my streak but it wasn’t my life. End my streak myself to prevent the raid? Kind of a conundrum that one.

Now I’m not a raider, but I understand why you guys would want to raid Forest. Good publicity; probably going to get defenders attention more than some backwater, 3 nation region, so a bit more of a challenge; and some people (ie me) are actually going to care about the raid. I don’t honestly expect to talk a single raider out from crashing out other old delegates (in fact I’m surprised I lasted as long as I did and you guys don’t do it to more old delegates). Nor do I feel that the raiding/defense thing as a whole is bad for nationstates, it seems to be a game within a game which makes folks have fun playing nationstates, and I think people are having fun playing nationstates that’s a good thing.

But do think the challenge of keeping Forest happy for all the time I was delegate was far greater than the challenge of raiding Forest. So I have to ask, is it good for a game to make it easy to discourage a player like myself that has for a long time been a promoter of community in the game? I don’t have a technical solution I’m pushing to change anything, but that’s just the general feeling the raid has left with me.
I think the community I’m a part of and the friendships I built will keep me coming back to NS. At least I hope so. But I can tell you if I CTE in a year or two I wouldn’t have if my streak was still going.

[Ambroscus Koth]

The Black Hawks*

[Valrifell]

The Black Hawks*

Silly Koth, all Raiders are TBR, it's easier to keep up with this way.
You should know, after all, you're a rider.

[Esterild]

As far as I'm concerned, your streak continues!

[Jakker]

You were raided by The Black Hawks. The same organization that raided Forest many years ago. Congrats on holding onto the delegacy for so long.

[We Are Not The ATF]

The Black Hawks*

Silly Koth, all Raiders are TBR, it's easier to keep up with this way.
You should know, after all, you're a rider.

That's racist. Not all blacks are the same.

[Kazmr]

Frankly, I understand your point man. Ill probably get half a dozen raiders come along after I say this calling me a 'moralist' or whatever other bs they come up with to sleep at night and justify why what they do as 'just fun' and not harmful to the game, but its the truth. When my RPing region was tagged awhile back, it pissed people off. Sure there was no danger of an occupation or a refound or anything, just like your case, but it pissed people off nonetheless. They came into our home and knocked over the shelves. They tell you to get a founder, but then they tag you anyway. They tell you to set non-exec, but in your case you're probably right; this was about your record and not the tag itself. Truth is, raiders don't care. To them its fun, but the truth is that its fun for two or five or twenty people at the expense of everyone else's. Its damn frustrating knowing that no matter what you do in this game you can be subject to legalized trolling. Enjoy your record? Too bad, we want to smash it. Enjoy the community you've had peacefully for years? Too bad, we're gonna break it, and if your founder doesnt come back probably do it over and over and over again until you end up like so many regions where people have just given up. Raids certainly do cause people to quit this game, but they can also be more insidious than that.Death by a thousand papercuts, death by constant frustration.

I sincerely hope that you find a way to still enjoy this community for what it is, and just keep in mind that the ugly face of this community is only the smallest, tiniest minority. One that should have been thrown out onto the proverbial streets long ago, but still a tiny one regardless.

[Gest]

I think the community I’m a part of and the friendships I built will keep me coming back to NS. At least I hope so. But I can tell you if I CTE in a year or two I wouldn’t have if my streak was still going.

That's your call to make, if you decide a number was more important than your friends/community, The Black Hawks aren't to blame.

or whatever other bs they come up with to sleep at night

A pillow does the trick quite nicely.

[Jakker]

From my experience, raiding brings a lot to the game. A main thing is perspective. It reveals what is important to you. It shows a region what community truly means. On a surface level, a delegate streak matters. And yeah it sucks to lose it. But is that the motivation to log into a game? If that is what keeps you going, I'm not sure if it's worth it. If a temporary raid causes someone to leave the game or a region to fall apart, I don't believe that the raid is the sole reason. It may be a factor, but as you said, a raid is just a paper cut. Raiding the same region over and over again isn't ideal. But in a situation like this, no harm was caused other than a number changed. And again, when a number is what keeps you logging into a game, maybe the game isn't giving you enough to be part of your life.

[The Church of Satan]

And whatever one's reason for logging in it just isn't right for raiders to come in and take it away. What raiders do is just wrong. It's like barging into someone's home during dinner and spitting in their food just because you get a kick out of it. Look at it from their point of view. If the roles were reversed, you guys wouldn't be very happy if a bunch of outsiders came in to mess everything up now would you? You can try to justify it all you want, but the fact of the matter is it's just plain wrong.

[Esterild]

From my experience, raiding brings a lot to the game. A main thing is perspective. It reveals what is important to you. It shows a region what community truly means. On a surface level, a delegate streak matters. And yeah it sucks to lose it. But is that the motivation to log into a game? If that is what keeps you going, I'm not sure if it's worth it. If a temporary raid causes someone to leave the game or a region to fall apart, I don't believe that the raid is the sole reason. It may be a factor, but as you said, a raid is just a paper cut. Raiding the same region over and over again isn't ideal. But in a situation like this, no harm was caused other than a number changed. And again, when a number is what keeps you logging into a game, maybe the game isn't giving you enough to be part of your life.

So your griefing is actually motivated by a compassionate desire to teach others about the truly important things in life? That is SO NICE!

[Jakker]

From my experience, raiding brings a lot to the game. A main thing is perspective. It reveals what is important to you. It shows a region what community truly means. On a surface level, a delegate streak matters. And yeah it sucks to lose it. But is that the motivation to log into a game? If that is what keeps you going, I'm not sure if it's worth it. If a temporary raid causes someone to leave the game or a region to fall apart, I don't believe that the raid is the sole reason. It may be a factor, but as you said, a raid is just a paper cut. Raiding the same region over and over again isn't ideal. But in a situation like this, no harm was caused other than a number changed. And again, when a number is what keeps you logging into a game, maybe the game isn't giving you enough to be part of your life.

So your griefing is actually motivated by a compassionate desire to teach others about the truly important things in life? That is SO NICE!

I am not trying to justify anything. We do what we do because we want to do it. I am simply speaking to the effect a raid can have.

And whatever one's reason for logging in it just isn't right for raiders to come in and take it away. What raiders do is just wrong. It's like barging into someone's home during dinner and spitting in their food just because you get a kick out of it. Look at it from their point of view. If the roles were reversed, you guys wouldn't be very happy if a bunch of outsiders came in to mess everything up now would you? You can try to justify it all you want, but the fact of the matter is it's just plain wrong.

If we are doing something that CoS disagrees with, then I know we are doing something completely right.

[Funkadelia]

So I have to ask, is it good for a game to make it easy to discourage a player like myself that has for a long time been a promoter of community in the game? I don’t have a technical solution I’m pushing to change anything, but that’s just the general feeling the raid has left with me.
I think the community I’m a part of and the friendships I built will keep me coming back to NS. At least I hope so. But I can tell you if I CTE in a year or two I wouldn’t have if my streak was still going.

That's the thing.

They think that sort of feeling is absolutely hilarious, and take enjoyment in the fact that they're ruining, or at least tarnishing the game for other people. They don't care about what you think, and they don't care how long you were delegate. They just do it all for the purposes of self aggrandizement, and not much else.

Sorry that that had to happen to you. It's cool to see the delegates that have been at the helm of various regions for so long.

[Forever Fields]

Was sorry to see you loose your steak dude, 8 years as delegate is no small task, most here haven't even played that long. A rare accomplishment very few have ever done or ever likely to be able to do again. To have it taken for the sake of a brief raid is wrong.

[The Agnostic Collective]

Raiders be like:



Disclaimer: I reserve the right to praise, criticize and/or ridicule all aspects of R/D equally

[Errinundera]

^
But Forest has a founder. The raid only lasted until the founder logged in.

[Eist]

Ransium, don't blame the raiders (they are, after all, just angry teenagers), it's the admin that ultimately hold all of the power, and They. Just. Don't. Care. About. You. The absurd decaying sub forum in Technical is testament to that! It's outlived even some of the oldest delegates now.

Of course, raiders have nothing to add to your post other than correcting a trivial error. Keep up the good work Koth and Jakker! (This actually includes Onder who will inevitably deliver another essay that really says nothing at all). Why would they? They know the admin always has their back.

Cue the replies saying how raiders actually have it so hard and that destroying legacies like this promotes activity in 3, 2, 1...

[Todd McCloud]

Lots of anti-raider venom in this thread. Get one person to complain about how they get raided, and they all come out of the woodwork.

Cue the replies saying how raiders actually have it so hard and that destroying legacies like this promotes activity in 3, 2, 1...

But yes, the short answer is raiding actually does help activity, in several ways. It's more of a benefit than a burden in the grand scheme of the game.

[United RussoAsia]

And whatever one's reason for logging in it just isn't right for raiders to come in and take it away. What raiders do is just wrong. It's like barging into someone's home during dinner and spitting in their food just because you get a kick out of it. Look at it from their point of view. If the roles were reversed, you guys wouldn't be very happy if a bunch of outsiders came in to mess everything up now would you? You can try to justify it all you want, but the fact of the matter is it's just plain wrong.

If we are doing something that CoS disagrees with, then I know we are doing something completely right.

Yeah, pretty much.

[Marselesk]

Ransium, don't blame the raiders (they are, after all, just angry teenagers), it's the admin that ultimately hold all of the power, and They. Just. Don't. Care. About. You. The absurd decaying sub forum in Technical is testament to that! It's outlived even some of the oldest delegates now.

Of course, raiders have nothing to add to your post other than correcting a trivial error. Keep up the good work Koth and Jakker! (This actually includes Onder who will inevitably deliver another essay that really says nothing at all). Why would they? They know the admin always has their back.

Cue the replies saying how raiders actually have it so hard and that destroying legacies like this promotes activity in 3, 2, 1...

Raiders actually don't feel the need to justify their actions, believe it or not. We're fully aware of the effects of our invasions, and don't try to play the good guys. How hard raiders have it depends purely on the target, as different targets are harder to obtain. But we certainly do not complain about it, and we certainly do acknowledge that raiders have it much easier now than they used to. Nice strawman, though.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Now I’m not a raider, but I understand why you guys would want to raid Forest. Good publicity; probably going to get defenders attention more than some backwater, 3 nation region, so a bit more of a challenge; and some people (ie me) are actually going to care about the raid. I don’t honestly expect to talk a single raider out from crashing out other old delegates (in fact I’m surprised I lasted as long as I did and you guys don’t do it to more old delegates).

Those or the reasons why we do some.

Your post is part of why we do not do more.

Sure, they're everything you said positive for us, but they're also seemingly seen, strangely, as worse than, say, forcibly refounding. Perhaps because people thing of these as having less of a point? Anyways - something rarely taken into account is that we have images to work with - besides just "ebul." TBH, perhaps more so than others, dances a line with allies of many different types, and raids ranging from two-week visits that turn into parties, to full refounds, to things like this. After a row of destructive things, I like to lighten it up, and vice versa.

I'm not asking for understanding or anything - just elaborating on reasoning.

And whatever one's reason for logging in it just isn't right for raiders to come in and take it away. What raiders do is just wrong. It's like barging into someone's home during dinner and spitting in their food just because you get a kick out of it. Look at it from their point of view. If the roles were reversed, you guys wouldn't be very happy if a bunch of outsiders came in to mess everything up now would you? You can try to justify it all you want, but the fact of the matter is it's just plain wrong.

Funny thing, they sort of did. I'm sure you were around for the past four or five months of TBR, yes? And the stages of reply. TBR said "alright, so be it, we always said regions were just names, lets head to a new one. *cue DEN revival* " A little bit later, a bunch of us from various regions said "hey, we actually don't like the mess they're making there...it's not even coming out into a competent region, just a disorganized mob about to lynch their leader. Anyways, lets get into their intel department, and see if they have anything of value." That led to a chance to get leadership, and we decided it'd be a cool place to host RaiderCon, and afterwards, recover for the sake of history. Point is - both options of response occurred: It's just a name, move on to another region with a founder, it's the people that matter or some number (whether over 1000 embassies or an 8-year delegate reign. Both took years of work to make.), and hey, let's do something back (in your case, perhaps defend?). Sitting there and whining gets no one anywhere.

So your griefing is actually motivated by a compassionate desire to teach others about the truly important things in life? That is SO NICE!

*cue standard line*

Griefing is against site rules, and should be reported. Legal usage of the built-in system of delegate elections for military purposes (aka "The Invasion Game") is perfectly fine, as per the very site FAQ.

That's the thing.

They think that sort of feeling is absolutely hilarious, and take enjoyment in the fact that they're ruining, or at least tarnishing the game for other people. They don't care about what you think, and they don't care how long you were delegate. They just do it all for the purposes of self aggrandizement, and not much else.

I can't speak for all raider, but I don't do this to piss people off. Sorry. I do it in part for the people I do it with, I do it in part for the thrill of the chase (or in this case, infiltration), sometimes I do it to make a mark, sometimes I do it because someone said I couldn't raid region x, it's security was too good. There's a feeling you get - the best example I can give in recent times was the night Pont resigned in TBR. In that moment, we had a choice- Risk weeks of work on making a run for delegate, against the former delegate (UGR), and Cormac and Ivo teaming up as well, with hours to update and no starting endorsements. Those frantic hours of talking to no less than four people at a time in three different windows, making deals, shaking hands left and right, counting endos, and so on. The hunt becomes so frantic, you don't even care about the weeks ahead - just the next hour. Then....to see update hit, refresh the page.... I actually jumped out of my seat, and I think a few others that night did as well. Then sat right back down and went back to the essay due the next day But the point was - Categorizing all raiders after a few radicals is like categorizing all those with defender moralities after Unibot.

Ransium, don't blame the raiders (they are, after all, just angry teenagers), it's the admin that ultimately hold all of the power, and They. Just. Don't. Care. About. You. The absurd decaying sub forum in Technical is testament to that! It's outlived even some of the oldest delegates now.

Of course, raiders have nothing to add to your post other than correcting a trivial error. Keep up the good work Koth and Jakker! (This actually includes Onder who will inevitably deliver another essay that really says nothing at all). Why would they? They know the admin always has their back.

Cue the replies saying how raiders actually have it so hard and that destroying legacies like this promotes activity in 3, 2, 1...

As a teenager myself, I'm actually on the lower end of the spectrum here. Several of our members have kids, in fact And I'm actually quite relaxed in TBH these days. When I was angry and angsty, I joined TEK, and tried to defend. Furthermore, if you trust...say Xoriet, or Sev - feel free to ask them about me. I'm fairly confident they'll back my character up.

First off, the region that did it isn't exactly trivial. If I say TWP helped me on a raid, and TEP actually did, that'd cause a world of problems, especially if people were guaranteed to believe me Second off, those folks actually made some good and effectual posts - Jakker especially. I'd go back and read his longer ones. They contain some very well worded expressions of more common raider lines of thought. Third, admin has done nothing but tone down raiding over time. See: Introduction of founders, influence, etc. Don't mistake not getting around to making further major changes in game mechanics (that we'll likely work around in a few weeks anyways) with actively supporting us.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Ransium, don't blame the raiders (they are, after all, just angry teenagers), it's the admin that ultimately hold all of the power, and They. Just. Don't. Care. About. You. The absurd decaying sub forum in Technical is testament to that! It's outlived even some of the oldest delegates now.

Of course, raiders have nothing to add to your post other than correcting a trivial error. Keep up the good work Koth and Jakker! (This actually includes Onder who will inevitably deliver another essay that really says nothing at all). Why would they? They know the admin always has their back.

Cue the replies saying how raiders actually have it so hard and that destroying legacies like this promotes activity in 3, 2, 1...

Knock off the trolling Eist, you know better.

[Tano]

(they are, after all, just angry teenagers)

lol

I like you. You should post more


(and ftr this post is 100% sarcastic. Forgot it's hard to get that across over the interwebz)

[Land filled with People]

Knock off the trolling Eist, you know better.

Trolling, like griefing, doesn't exist. Or have you forgotten the party line so quickly?

[Luna Amore]

Knock off the trolling Eist, you know better.

Trolling, like griefing, doesn't exist. Or have you forgotten the party line so quickly?

Knock it off.