NationStates

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:45 pm**

Southern Bellz wrote:Maybe we shouldn't need an IT degree to understand basic recruitment rules???

There's no doubt that the person responsible knew what they were doing. If you're writing a script, you are smart enough to understand the API rules:

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:51 pm**

Onderkelkia wrote:It should be assumed that Bob Moran's script did not exist and that the LKE's legal script would have operated as it previously did - meaning that the LKE's population would be at 300-350 nations. It is only fair to the LKE to discount all the effects of Bob Moran's script - if we are talking about correcting the population to remove the effects which benefited us, then the effects that prevented our legal script working should also be considered.

I'm not going to take a position on that, but I will point out that it's highly arguable. You're saying the region should be credited for something it didn't actually do.

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:53 pm**

Shadoke wrote:I think the best way to resolve this from happening again is to create a page that show's something along these lines:

Sender Type Amount Sent Recruitment Rate
Guy 1 API 23 .03%
Guy 2 Stamps 1000 .05%
Guy 3 Manual, Stamps 133, 3500 .08%, .05%
Guy 4 API 12 .04%

This should be shown to Executive Delegates and Founder, and possibly Recruitment Officers. Now, in the case of LKE, this could show

Bob Moran Manual 3200 0.13%

This could show that he did it, and be more visible that he did.

It seems we were thinking along similar lines...

Almonaster wrote:
Recruitment scripts:
Presumably at some point the game code is 'aware' that nation x has sent a recruitment TG for region y. Would it be possible to keep a count of these cases, and provide a page per region which reports daily counts of who has sent out how many such TGs? That would then allow others in the region to monitor what was going on, and report any problems to the mods themselves. That in turn would make regional responsibility for recruitment violations much more reasonable.

I think something like this could be useful to regions generally, quite apart from the impact on any future cases like this.

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:54 pm**

[violet] wrote:
Onderkelkia wrote:It should be assumed that Bob Moran's script did not exist and that the LKE's legal script would have operated as it previously did - meaning that the LKE's population would be at 300-350 nations. It is only fair to the LKE to discount all the effects of Bob Moran's script - if we are talking about correcting the population to remove the effects which benefited us, then the effects that prevented our legal script working should also be considered.

I'm not going to take a position on that, but I will point out that it's highly arguable. You're saying the region should be credited for something it didn't actually do.

The region would have performed that recruitment, if not for Bob Moran's illegal activity causing our rule-compliant script to malfunction.

If we are going to remove some effects of Bob Moran's illegal activity, why only the ones that advantaged the LKE? All should be factored in.

It is highly unlikely that the LKE's population would have deviated from its previous trend of around 300-350 nations if Bob Moran had done nothing.

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:02 pm**

Onderkelkia wrote:If we are going to remove some effects of Bob Moran's illegal activity, why only the ones that advantaged the LKE? All should be factored in.

I partly agree; if I didn't, LKE's penalty would be harsher. I'm just saying it's a little like arguing that if you hadn't been stealing that TV, you would have been handing out soup at the homeless shelter. It may well be true, but the reality is you did one and not the other.

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:05 pm**

[violet] wrote:
Onderkelkia wrote:If we are going to remove some effects of Bob Moran's illegal activity, why only the ones that advantaged the LKE? All should be factored in.

I partly agree; if I didn't, LKE's penalty would be harsher. I'm just saying it's a little like arguing that if you hadn't been stealing that TV, you would have been handing out soup at the homeless shelter. It may well be true, but the reality is you did one and not the other.

This comes back to the fundamental point that the LKE didn't "steal the TV" - Bob Moran did, without our knowledge and consent.

Our API script was still attempting to send telegrams legally. It was only as a consequence of Bob Moran's script that it was prevented from doing so.

It is unfair, that as a result of Bob Moran's deception, the LKE population will fall quite some way below its previous level, when there are alternatives.

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:11 pm**

But Bob did the recruiting, albeit illegally and not to your knowledge, with LKE's official blessing. Isn't there something about a college's athletic program being held responsible even if it didn't know its football team was doing illegal recruiting and should have tried to keep institutional control?

Which, ironically, is the best descriptor in this affair: lack of institutional control.

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:18 pm**

The Republic of Lanos wrote:But Bob did the recruiting, albeit illegally and not to your knowledge, with LKE's official blessing. Isn't there something about a college's athletic program being held responsible even if it didn't know its football team was doing illegal recruiting and should have tried to keep institutional control?

Which, ironically, is the best descriptor in this affair: lack of institutional control.

This is absurd - the LKE could not have exerted "institutional control" over someone who actively deceived us.

1. Bob Moran had no "official blessing" for automated recruitment - which is ultimately what he did, even if it was spoofed as manual.

2. There was no way for the LKE to have detected that the telegrams Bob Moran was sending out were automated.

3. From the graph [violet] provided, Bob Moran's recruitment appears to have begun at some point in January/early February - i.e. before his appointment as Interior Minister on 8th March. So Bob Moran's use of the script can hardly be linked to that appointment, so all the justifications placing LKE culpability on Bob Moran's ministerial office have no basis. The Prime Minister has already described why he selected Bob Moran for that post on 8th March:

Josh Sebastian wrote:The Imperial Government of The Land of Kings and Emperors did not authorize Bob Moran to use any script/recruitment program, nor had we any knowledge that he had access to such tools. Bob Moran was made Interior Minister in early March of this year in recognition of the valuable input he made during our community forum restructuring; the review of our recruitment and integration telegrams, and his supposedly manual recruitment efforts. He was a friendly member of the community, always on the look out to help our newer members, and suggest ideas for the betterment of our community. Which is why, his involvement in these is a great shock and dismay to us all.

There were no reasonable grounds for the LKE to conclude that Bob Moran had been involved in wrongdoing at that point.

Posted: **Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:39 pm**

I would like to help with the questions regarding population figures of both the LKE and TBR. I have gotten this information from NS History. it should be noted that there is a delay in the acquiring and releasing of information so the current drop in population is not shown in the following graphs.

The LKE Population graph is as follows

The Black Riders graph is as follows

For reference sake, here is also the population figures for Albion

As the graphs above show, the population rate does not increase until around mid march. At that point the rate of increase is kind of subtle in the LKE but is very evident in TBR. Hope this helps with the discussions.

EDIT: The Graphs start from January 1, 2015 to April 30, 2015. Data is only available until April 20th at this point in time.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 12:01 am**

[Violet], have you actually thought about any of the alternatives that Onder, myself, or anyone else has posted?

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 3:48 am**

I was the Interior Minister before Bob Moran. Much of my work was focused on naturalisation and domestic policies on the forum. As a region that does not use telegram stamps, the aim has always been to maintain a stable population and gradually increase it. Bob Moran made me aware that he was doing manual recruitment in late January and there was no basis to believe that he was doing anything illegal. His actions started before his appointment as Interior Minister and his appointment was also for his contributions in other aspects of the LKE, as has been explained.

The large and significant increase we had was also experienced by many other regions. It was announced that across NationStates there was an increase in new nations due to Reddit. This was a plausible explanation for our increase as our WA delegate endorsements and citizenship applications also increased as well. The LKE had no reason to suspect the nation increase was to do with anything else.

These illegal actions were committed by one individual that we could not have possibly known about. The Government gave Bob Moran no permission and there was no reason not to believe what he was saying.
Anyone who suggests anything different is absolutely wrong and the LKE community should not be punished for the actions of one individual.

I see no logical reason why a whole region is punished for one persons actions that no-on else knew about. The punishment of a whole region for one persons actions sets a dangerous precedent.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 5:13 am**

Maybe a compromise could be 1 month ban from recruiting with a 2 month probation of no API recruiting? Then maybe we can appease both parties in some way?

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 5:36 am**

Trick Shot wrote:Maybe a compromise could be 1 month ban from recruiting with a 2 month probation of no API recruiting? Then maybe we can appease both parties in some way?

No. This is a punishment put in place following an extreme and concerted violation of website rules. Although some may believe that the LKE should not be subjected to this punishment, so long as they are it should not be watered down. Indeed, it should not be removed either. The Mods have ruled on this issue and their word is final. A token penalty would be entirely unacceptable - the ruling, in my humble opinion, should stand.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 5:55 am**

So a whole community of people are punished and must suffer because of the actions of one person. No-one knew about Bob Morans actions yet they are punished for it. What is to stop other people doing this illegal action in other regions just to damage the whole region. If people know the whole region has to suffer, this could easily be turned into a way to harm regions.

Individual circumstances should be looked at. No one knows for sure but Bob Moran could have been working to hurt the LKE and then the whole of the LKE has to then be punished for this crime. That's unacceptable to the rest of the people in the region who have to be hurt by this. There is nothing that could have been done to detect what Bob Moran was doing so I don't see any reason why everyone else must pay the price. I urge the mods to reconsider their decision.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 6:22 am**

Akillian wrote:What is to stop other people doing this illegal action in other regions just to damage the whole region. If people know the whole region has to suffer, this could easily be turned into a way to harm regions.

Did you forget the part where Bob got declared DoS for this? I'd say that's a pretty huge deterrent for folks thinking they can weaponize this.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 6:26 am**

Akillian wrote:So a whole community of people are punished and must suffer because of the actions of one person. No-one knew about Bob Morans actions yet they are punished for it. What is to stop other people doing this illegal action in other regions just to damage the whole region. If people know the whole region has to suffer, this could easily be turned into a way to harm regions.

Except, as the mods have indicated, anyone seeking to 'weaponise' a script like this would be immediately pushed very close to, if not straight over, the DoS line.

If Bob was harming the LKE, he did it in a strange way. He got you several hundred new recruits, whilst (due to past precendent) not realising that LKE and TBR would be banned from recruiting. That sounds more like someone helping than hindering.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 6:34 am**

Ambroscus Koth wrote:
Akillian wrote:What is to stop other people doing this illegal action in other regions just to damage the whole region. If people know the whole region has to suffer, this could easily be turned into a way to harm regions.

Did you forget the part where Bob got declared DoS for this? I'd say that's a pretty huge deterrent for folks thinking they can weaponize this.

It should be, on its own, a pretty huge deterrent for people thinking they can run illegal recruitment scripts full stop.

The remaining people, those who are willing to become DOS, are precisely those who would be prepared to weaponise it.

Land filled with People wrote:If Bob was harming the LKE, he did it in a strange way. He got you several hundred new recruits, whilst (due to past precendent) not realising that LKE and TBR would be banned from recruiting. That sounds more like someone helping than hindering.

Anyone with the slightest sense should have known that running an illegal recruitment script was never going to turn out well - even if a recruitment block had not been imposed (which, as you point out, runs contrary to previous practices of individual punishment), the reputation costs alone are drastic.

I'm uncertain what Bob Moran's motivations were. I am sure that "Anur-Sanur/Frak" certainly would not have wanted to help the LKE.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 7:01 am**

I would also like to point out that the population figures of the LKE currently are not unheard of if you look at the history of the LKE. during the early to mid 2013, there was a similar spike in population figures to about 730 as shown by the following graph,

So for people who had been around during this time, which is the entire LKE leadership, we would most likely assume that these numbers are normal and nothing to worry about.

Add on the fact that regional populations were also increasing at a steady rate like Albion, there was no way for LKE leadership to believe that something illegal was happening.

Adding to that, Bob Moran did not indicate that he was doing anything illegal at all when posting his recruitment reports to the general LKE public as shown by the following:

First Report, Posted 3/27/2015

Our population at the beginning of the term stood at around 524 nations.

Thousands of handsent telegrams and 20 days later, we now stand at 707 nations.

This high figure was achieved through hard work and thanks to favorable circumstances. Indeed the overall NS population has been smashing all records and stands today at 144,176 nations.

We can be proud of this, we must aspire to maintain ourselves at this level.

Second Report, posted 4/10/2015

Late March, at the time of the previous report, our population was in the low 700's.

Since then we have surpassed our all time population record, all the way up to 740.

However, the NS population boom has stabilized, resulting in a net loss of about 4000 nations since the last report. This did not prevent the LKE population to remain strong at around 720 nations.

I don't expect this figure to change much for the rest of the term. Spring is generally an active time for Nationstates.

Third Report, Posted 4/19/2015

Roughly 10 days ago, at the time of our last report the LKE was host of around 720 nations while the NS population stood at around 140k nations.

Since then, the LKE has reached once more its peak of late march when it rose all the way to 740, standing at the time of this report at 742 nations, despite the fact that the overall NS population has decreased by 3000 nations, to around 141k.

This is indeed an extraordinary achievement for a region that has never used Stamps. Among the largest regions, Only 10000 Islands boasts similar results.

Our Delegate has also received 90 endorsements, while the Imperial Army has 20 Units deployed at the moment, for a potential overall voting power of 110 for our Delegate.

Here are the Top 20 regions and their population:
1.The North Pacific 6,802
2.The South Pacific 6,116
3.The West Pacific 6,136
4.The Pacific6,082
5.The East Pacific5,888
6.Lazarus 4,562
7.Balder 4,033
8.Osiris 4,006
9.The Rejected Realms 3,266
10.Nugut 1,550
11.10000 Islands1,572
12.The Communist Bloc1,121
13.Europeia1,001
14.The Black Riders 845
15.The Americas 800
16.Pacific Union 799
17.The Land of Kings and Emperors 738
18.Union of Confederate Regions 518
19.Albion 479
20.NationStates 482

As you can see above, Bob never indicated that he was ever doing anything illegal and also would explain the reasons why the figures were what they were. As such LKE leadership had no reason to suspect that anything illegal was occurring.

We could have suspected that Bob was doing something illegal when he noted that he sent "thousands of handsent telegrams" but, as explained by Onder earlier, this was not unheard of in a region where 200-300 telegrams can be sent by a person per day in years past.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 10:08 am**

Voltrovia wrote:
Trick Shot wrote:Maybe a compromise could be 1 month ban from recruiting with a 2 month probation of no API recruiting? Then maybe we can appease both parties in some way?

No. This is a punishment put in place following an extreme and concerted violation of website rules. Although some may believe that the LKE should not be subjected to this punishment, so long as they are it should not be watered down. Indeed, it should not be removed either. The Mods have ruled on this issue and their word is final. A token penalty would be entirely unacceptable - the ruling, in my humble opinion, should stand.

It appears that Bob Moran was the issue and he has been dealt with, has he not? I believe LKE was not aware of any illegal activities and therefore should not be punished this severely. I do understand the moderators made their ruling, but we are still here arguing, yes?

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 3:00 pm**

Trick Shot wrote:I do understand the moderators made their ruling, but we are still here arguing, yes?

People are still here arguing, because that's what the NS forum is for.

Posted: **Fri May 01, 2015 6:40 pm**

Aelbarrow wrote:I would also like to point out that the population figures of the LKE currently are not unheard of if you look at the history of the LKE. during the early to mid 2013, there was a similar spike in population figures to about 730 as shown by the following graph,

The 2013 population peak, the only peak that has a slope as steep, and for as long as the recent peak, was when scripted TGs were made legal. That graph really is not helping your case here.

Posted: **Sat May 02, 2015 2:52 am**

Land filled with People wrote:
Aelbarrow wrote:I would also like to point out that the population figures of the LKE currently are not unheard of if you look at the history of the LKE. during the early to mid 2013, there was a similar spike in population figures to about 730 as shown by the following graph,

The 2013 population peak, the only peak that has a slope as steep, and for as long as the recent peak, was when scripted TGs were made legal. That graph really is not helping your case here.

That peak was indeed the result of the use of our legal script in the pre-stamps period. However, it did show that the LKE's population could theoretically reach that level if sufficient telegrams were sent out. I agree that it doesn't necessarily help our case, but that graph certainly doesn't detract from it.

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2015 2:49 pm**

I would like to note that since April 27th, when this was enacted, the population of the LKE has fallen by 57 nations to 663 nations. at this rate the LKE will lose a total of 684 nations by the end of ban on recruitment. I should also note that population numbers will drop to below Pre-Bob Moran figures by the end of the month at the same rate. As such i feel it is much more proactive to set the ban on recruitment to one month so as to remove any gains brought on by Bob Moran's Illegal Script usage without causing the LKE unnecessary damage.

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2015 3:45 pm**

Aelbarrow wrote:I would like to note that since April 27th, when this was enacted, the population of the LKE has fallen by 57 nations to 663 nations. at this rate the LKE will lose a total of 684 nations....

Relevant

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2015 4:17 pm**

Valrifell wrote:
Aelbarrow wrote:I would like to note that since April 27th, when this was enacted, the population of the LKE has fallen by 57 nations to 663 nations. at this rate the LKE will lose a total of 684 nations....

Relevant

First, to re-state the figures: on 27th April, we had over 730 nations. A week, later, we now have 663 nations. That is a loss of 67 nations. If the LKE lost the same amount every week of the 3-month recruitment block, the total nation loss would in fact be over 861 nations, more than the LKE ever had.

Clearly, the LKE is not going to lose the same amount continuously across the entire 90 day period, because there will come a point when a bedrock of long-term LKE nations is reached. Until that point nears, it is not unreasonable to assume that there will be decreases on a similar scale as that experienced recently and that the repetition of these increases will result in a population total lower than what it would have been without Bob Moran's actions.

What will the population be when it stabilises? Given that there are less than 200 nations in the LKE who joined less than 90 days ago, the population will likely fall below 200 - yet, even before the period of growth shown on [violet]'s graph likely caused by Bob Moran, our population was 300-350 nations.

Sender	Type	Amount Sent	Recruitment Rate
Guy 1	API	23	.03%
Guy 2	Stamps	1000	.05%
Guy 3	Manual, Stamps	133, 3500	.08%, .05%
Guy 4	API	12	.04%

NationStates

Illegal Script Usage