People's Republic of Lazarus

[Fatdul]

I ask who were members of the Council and who were expelled because the Council did not consist of all citizens. Entry to the Emerald Council appears to have been fairly restricted, actually.

Indeed, I'm aware that it did not consist of all citizens and had a restrictive entry process, but those who were ejected - including Griffin, NES and Cerebella - were council members. I don't myself have the exact list of all members of the council at the time of the purge (as I was not a member of the council or Lazarus at all, whereas NES or Griffin may have more details), but my understanding is that those ejected were 30% of the membership.

Following further irritating research, I've found some relevant information.

First, a roster of the Emerald Council last edited August 10, 2013:

1. Feux
2. Drop Your Pants
3. Stujenske
4. Viktoria Gryfynn
5. Heronlord
6. North East Somerset
7. Spectacor
8. C. I. Cerebella
9. Apollo
10. Gauntleted Fist
11. Aperi
12. Funkadelia
13. New Rogernomics
14. Milograd

(Note: the original list was in bullet form, changed it to numbered list for convenience).

Feux' announcement of expulsions and his resignation is dated September 16th, so the roster needs to be checked for changes in the intervening period.

There is a Removed Council Members topic I've found... which ends November 18th 2012. Useless.

After digging through the applications for a while, I stumbled across the old Emerald Council voting archive by searching on one of the applicants' names. It's apparent that Libetarian Republics, Harmoneia, Sovreignry, Antonacia, and EvilBob were admitted between August 10 and September 16th. It's also apparent that expulsions were usually voted on here. For example, Kingborough's removal vote July 28 - August 4 2013.

Let us assume that there were no removals not voted on in this archive between August 10th and September 16th.

The corrected roster is therefore:

1. Feux
2. Drop Your Pants
3. Stujenske
4. Viktoria Gryfynn
5. Heronlord
6. North East Somerset
7. Spectacor
8. C. I. Cerebella
9. Apollo
10. Gauntleted Fist
11. Aperi
12. Funkadelia
13. New Rogernomics
14. Milograd
15. Libetarian Republics
16. Harmoneia
17. Sovreignry
18. Antonacia
19. EvilBob

I was unable to find a vote or announcement of a vote on the September 16th removals, perhaps someone with better masking can do that. For the time being, let us refer to the NSNE story on the subject:

The members of The New Inquisition’s Executive Government who were banned and ejected are the Kaiserin, Queen Viktoria Gryffyn, Heir Apparent, Charles Cerebella and The New Inquisition’s Prince, North East Somerset. Also removed from Lazarus is Apollo Anumia, ex-founder of Ainur.

Viktoria Gryfynn, C. I. Cerebella, North East Somerset, and Apollo were all Emerald Council members, according to the above research.

Dividing 4 by 19 we find that they formed 21% of the Emerald Council. A disturbingly high percentage, from my liberal perspective, to be expelled. Not quite 25% however, and much less than 30%.

This doesn't constitute proof that the action was legal, by the by, but it does seem to disprove your argument for why it wasn't. To actually positively describe the vote as legal, I would need to see it, and would like a bit more certainty as to the roster at the time of the vote.

I hope this is helpful.

[Onderkelkia]

Dividing 4 by 19 we find that they formed 21% of the Emerald Council. A disturbingly high percentage, from my liberal perspective, to be expelled. Not quite 25% however, and much less than 30%.

The 30% figure I cited presumably originated with the 10th August 2013 list, which has 14 members, with 4 members constituting 29% rounded up.

You will appreciate, no doubt, that I have no access to the former Lazarus forum to see whether any new members joined after that date.

In any case, to have reached the 75% point whereby the removals would have been legal, at least 15 members (i.e. all members other than those who were to be ejected) would have had to vote in favour if all members participated. Naturally, as a result of their having been banned from the region on 16th September, the individuals who were removed would have been prevented from participating in any vote if it occurred on or after 16th September (I would be very surprised if a vote occurred with a decent period of time before that date, given the nature of the announcement) - conducting the vote in this fashion might have made it easier to reach 75%, but the removals would have been effectively performed before they could have been legally authorised.

The legality of the events concerned (assuming, of course, given the fact you could not find one, that a vote occurred at all) is highly doubtful at best.

[Fatdul]

Dividing 4 by 19 we find that they formed 21% of the Emerald Council. A disturbingly high percentage, from my liberal perspective, to be expelled. Not quite 25% however, and much less than 30%.

The 30% figure I cited presumably originated with the 10th August 2013 list, which has 14 members, with 4 members constituting 29% rounded up.

You will appreciate, no doubt, that I have no access to the former Lazarus forum to see whether any new members joined after that date.

In any case, to have reached the 75% point whereby the removals would have been legal, at least 15 members (i.e. all members other than those who were to be ejected) would have had to vote in favour if all members participated. Naturally, as a result of their having been banned from the region on 16th September, the individuals who were removed would have been prevented from participating in any vote if it occurred on or after 16th September (I would be very surprised if a vote occurred with a decent period of time before that date, given the nature of the announcement) - conducting the vote in this fashion might have made it easier to reach 75%, but the removals would have been effectively performed before they could have been legally authorised.

The legality of the events concerned (assuming, of course, given the fact you could not find one, that a vote occurred at all) is highly doubtful at best.

Everyone I've asked about it who was in Lazarus following the vote has said that it was legal, I believe. On that basis, and because my investigation of the claim that it could not have been legal gave me a negative result, I'm inclined to believe it was probably legal.

That doesn't mean I think it was good policy, just, or fair. Were I to have been in the Emerald Council, I suspect I would have voted for the removal of North East Somerset but against the removal of anyone else.

From what I understand of public comments by harmoneia on this forum after the removals, the Emerald Council of Lazarus held the discussion on the expulsions in private, so as to protect their source(s) of intelligence. That leads me to believe the voting may also have been in secret.

As a final note, all of my links are public. Opening them in private/incognito browsing should be sufficient to avoid the awfully irritating "Chairman wants you to log in" javascript.

[Onderkelkia]

The 30% figure I cited presumably originated with the 10th August 2013 list, which has 14 members, with 4 members constituting 29% rounded up.

You will appreciate, no doubt, that I have no access to the former Lazarus forum to see whether any new members joined after that date.

In any case, to have reached the 75% point whereby the removals would have been legal, at least 15 members (i.e. all members other than those who were to be ejected) would have had to vote in favour if all members participated. Naturally, as a result of their having been banned from the region on 16th September, the individuals who were removed would have been prevented from participating in any vote if it occurred on or after 16th September (I would be very surprised if a vote occurred with a decent period of time before that date, given the nature of the announcement) - conducting the vote in this fashion might have made it easier to reach 75%, but the removals would have been effectively performed before they could have been legally authorised.

The legality of the events concerned (assuming, of course, given the fact you could not find one, that a vote occurred at all) is highly doubtful at best. On that basis, and

Everyone I've asked about it who was in Lazarus following the vote has said that it was legal, I believe.

What "basis" is this?

Since when has popular belief been a factor in whether or not something is legal?

I'm not surprised that the People's Republic of Lazarus like to think that the purge on which their existence depended on was legal, but what matters is why.

because my investigation of the claim that it could not have been legal gave me a negative result, I'm inclined to believe it was probably legal.

Your "investigation" did not establish when the vote took place, who was able to participate in it (whether it was the whole actual Emerald Council or a separate private chamber which excluded members of the Emerald Council they didn't like) or the exact totals in whatever vote did take place.

From what I understand of public comments by harmoneia on this forum after the removals, the Emerald Council of Lazarus held the discussion on the expulsions in private, so as to protect their source(s) of intelligence. That leads me to believe the voting may also have been in secret

The Emerald Council included Griffin, North East Somerset, Cerebella and Apollo up until the point where a vote approved their removal. They were entitled to participate in any vote on whether they should be removed, otherwise the requirement for a 75% super-majority was essentially subverted.

If they were banned before a vote took place, then they were banned before it was legally authorised under the constitution.

If they were banned from voting because it was held in secret, then that artificially lowered the bar, considering that if they had been able to vote and with a 75% super-majority requirement, the motion would have required 15 votes to pass (assuming full participation, or at least 12 votes as a minimum).

[Great Brigantia]

I like how Funkadelia has a post on the previous page of this thread, which includes, among other things, the following:

When the region is returned to native control, there are extensive plans to strengthen democratic institutions in the region. Over the past couple of weeks, People's Congressman Gulliver and I have been drafting a new constitution for Lazarus. It will be a demoratic government with an elected Delegate, Vice Delegate, and Speaker of the legislature. The legislature will also vote on who will become the equivalent of the "endorsees," to ensure nonpartisan high endorsement, high influence nations are always in the region in case something like this should happen again. There will also be an independent court system.

And yet this has gone completely ignored in favor of this current pointless argument, which I'm sorry for bothering to start this morning.

Whatever one's views on the PRL and its legitimacy, there is no question -- none -- that the PRL community is the only community that can now claim to be the native community, that has any chance of actually taking back Lazarus from the NPO/NLO, that already has the broad support of the interregional community, and that has the will to create a sovereign, liberal, democratic government in Lazarus after the region is reclaimed from the NPO/NLO.

Whatever one thinks of the PRL's legitimacy, if one wants to see a sovereign, liberal, democratic Lazarus, one should support the PRL. You're never going to see such a government and culture under the NPO/NLO, and there is no viable path to that kind of government and culture except the PRL. This is the exact same political calculation that independents and imperialists made when they decided to support the Osiris Fraternal Order in December 2013, a government that has brought an unprecedented level of liberal democracy and, for the first time, real stability to Osiris, whatever its other flaws may be (and there are many). Bear in mind that by supporting the PRL with the expectation of reform, reform they've already indicated they're not only willing but eager to pursue, that just provides all the more incentive to see the reform through. Again, that was the independent and imperialist perspective on the OFO in 2013, and the same perspective should apply here.

[Solorni]

Surely though the PRL still has issues with many independent and imperialist regions that it should be trying to solve?

[Great Brigantia]

Surely though the PRL still has issues with many independent and imperialist regions that it should be trying to solve?

This isn't exactly the time to solve deep-seated problems it has had with various regions for years. Lazarus is in the middle of a coup. That said, Funkadelia's post did express remorse regarding past decisions in Lazarus.

This isn't about interpersonal problems or how offended you feel, Rachel. This is about the sovereignty of Feeder and SInker regions, and the primacy of liberal democracy as the foundation of their political culture and basis of their governance. Of course, you have recently abolished liberal democracy in Balder, in favor of an as yet unannounced alternative, so I'm not sure how much promoting liberal democracy in Feeders and Sinkers means to you at the moment. Nonetheless, if Balder is to have any reasonable expectation that regions are going to support its community in a future time of crisis, Balder needs to support other Feeder and Sinker communities in their times of crisis. What should be more important to you than rehashing the past is a sovereign, liberal, and democratic future for Lazarus.

[Solorni]

Isn't that the point of building relations and alliances in times of peace however? Rather than of course pursuing the course of a rogue state... It should also be noted that Balder opposed the PRL due to its purges which is still has not apologized for that I recall and that many of the people it purged lived or live in Balder.

[North East Somerset]

I think I need to clear a lot of misconceptions that people have about the People's Republic. I am sure that even after I post this, a few posters are still going to take their lies and half truths as absolute facts, but it seems that many people are unaware of the circumstances, and the plan for Lazarus' future.

I know it sounds corny or whatever, but I'm writing this from the bottom of my heart. It's painful to admit, but it needs to be done.

In the wake of this coup and the occupation of Lazarus by the New Pacific Order, it has caused most of us Lazarenes to look in hindsight at what happened during the People's Republic. I am willing to admit, with shame, that I was manipulated by the NPO to do what they wanted. I can say that I resisted some of their overt attempts to dictate my policy while I was Chairman, but some members of the NPO feigned friendship with me in order to manipulate me, my opinions, and the actions of the Lazarene government. I am not in a position to speak on behalf of Harmoneia, but I imagine that she was also manipulated by NPO members, especially Milograd. Milograd is very good at making himself look good, but, as we have seen now over the past four years or so, his intentions are always for his own and/or for the NPO's benefit. Today, Milograd gloats about how we and defenders in general were naive. I don't think it's wrong to trust, I think it's wrong to obtain it in order to abuse it.

At the same time, however, I feel very guilty for allowing the NPO subvert the sovereignty of Lazarus. I will recognize that many have warned of this in the past, but from my perspective, I was led to believe that members such as Feux and Stujenske (those who actually stuck around, unlike Milograd) were truly Lazarenes, and simply members of both The Pacific and Lazarus. Feux especially had put significant amounts of time into the region, and he and I (or so I had thought) were friends, so I genuinely believed that he had the best intentions for the region. Why would I not believe that? Again, I understand that from the point of view of someone who I have been at odds with in the past that it was obvious that Feux, Milograd, et. al. were not exactly on the up and up. However, from the point of view of most Lazarenes, these members invested great efforts into making Lazarus a better and stronger region. It is clear to us all now that this was a carefully thought out and executed plan to claim the region as their personal trinket. I apologize to everyone, especially the natives of Lazarus, for allowing myself to be blinded enough to not realize the reality of the situation.

When the region is returned to native control, there are extensive plans to strengthen democratic institutions in the region. Over the past couple of weeks, People's Congressman Gulliver and I have been drafting a new constitution for Lazarus. It will be a demoratic government with an elected Delegate, Vice Delegate, and Speaker of the legislature. The legislature will also vote on who will become the equivalent of the "endorsees," to ensure nonpartisan high endorsement, high influence nations are always in the region in case something like this should happen again. There will also be an independent court system.

I have tried to be totally forthcoming and honest in writing this post, and I hope that this clears up some concerns about the direction of the People's Republic.

This means a great deal to me. Admitting the mistakes of the past, is the first stage towards getting the future right. I am glad you are addressing some of these matters, rather than acting as an apologist for the NPO-PRL regime, like some of Cormac's posts here.

Cormac, I absolutely reject all the central notions you are making, you really have no idea what you are talking about;

Let's establish what actually happened in 2013. First, Phoenix King Feux -- at the time acting under the legal authority of the Emerald Kingdom of Lazarus via Mandate 7, the constitution agreed to even by the later purged imperialists -- purged several imperialists from the region. Then, the People's Republic of Lazarus was established under Chairwoman Harmoneia. Again, the establishment of the PRL was done entirely in accordance with Mandate 7.

Firstly, the original Mandate 7 constitution proposed by Stujenske had Delegate's appointed by their predecessors.

It was the dastardly imperialists that pushed to overturn this, and install a system for Challenging the Delegate and Annual Elections.

Next, the notion that the Imperialist Purges were in any way constitutional is false. This isn't a matter of perspective, no reasonable Court in even NS would rule that they were legal. Mandate 7 can be found here: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=stuj ... k/id=66019

The relevant section is:

The Council retains the right to expel members from the Council and/or region by a 75% vote.

Such a 75% vote was never passed, but a mass removal of several active Councillors occurred with no vote through the Delegate's authority - which was unconstitutional and totally akin to the removal of Funkadelia. The new Constitutional reforms and a post-ban justification were then brought in with a 75% majority of the new illegal smaller body, a number of voters below the level needed to secure 75% of the legally in effect Assembly. With all the key opposition voices removed, NPO were free to rebrand Lazarus - and they did a good job of that with the PRL, as I acknowledged. But no matter how well scripted it was, it doesn't change the truth.

The so-called "imperialists" never did anything illegal in Lazarus. They voted against NPO attempts to bring Lazarus into SovCon, and frustrated NPO control of the region. That is why they were rid of. You of all people know Cormac how frustrating I can be when I am trying to stop initiatives which I don't believe in, and I don't believe will benefit the region. Would it have benefited Lazarus to join SovCon?

The reality is, if the NPO had run a genuine vote to expel me, or Griffin, they would have struggled to get over 50%, never mind 75%, of the Council - even with them shipping in Karpathos, Milograd and the likes from NPO.

The PRL was built on a bedrock of corrupt and unconstitutional purges, and it is imperative that is acknowledges this and seeks to address these faults in any future reincarnations if it wants to secure the support of those who were wronged.

You will also note that, while somewhat dubious, there were better grounds for the purge of imperialists in 2013. NES had, in fact, discussed perpetrating the imperialists' own coup d'etat against Lazarus, a discussion that was revealed in "The NPO's Retort."

Rubbish, no I hadn't. I was never found guilty of any crime against Lazarus. A spurious and baseless general assumption was put forwards that I was a threat to Lazarus - but no evidence was ever "revealed" in the NPO Retort. If you believe otherwise, feel free to quote exactly what it was.

[Great Brigantia]

NES, I've already indicated that I'm not going to carry on with this pointless argument and that I regret starting it in the first place. None of it is relevant to the current situation. But please feel free to continue arguing with thin air, if you'd like.

[Guy]

What is downright silly is not to recognise the PRL as the manifestation of the wishes of Lazarus' natives. Any things it may have done wrong in the past -- in particular, its close relations with the NPO -- will have to be addressed. To withhold support to the natives based on personal interests may be fitting to those who see their sole goal in NS as advancing their own region's interests, but not to the rest of us.

[Ikania]

Statement retracted after response.

[Zenya]

But but but.... justice and democracy....

Just nice little slogans for them

[North East Somerset]

What is downright silly is not to recognise the PRL as the manifestation of the wishes of Lazarus' natives. Any things it may have done wrong in the past -- in particular, its close relations with the NPO -- will have to be addressed. To withhold support to the natives based on personal interests may be fitting to those who see their sole goal in NS as advancing their own region's interests, but not to the rest of us.

I've never pretended for a second that I have any grand or over-arching moral concerns with regards to the "interests" of "the rest of us" - whoever they may be. There are certain things like forum destruction the entire civilised world can agree on (apart from Unibot) and I also fall in the pro-democracy, pro-sovereignty camps. But more important than any of these more abstract principles, is the basic right to making independent choices free from universal moralistic elements. I represent the interests of those regions who by no coincidence are some of the least ideological and most practical in the game. I'm deeply skeptical about this notion of a global Nationstates community that Defenders create as a justification for their moral leadership, when it suits them. Inevitably due to corruption it ends up even more self-serving a philosophy than even the most cynical corporatist campaigns I've been involved with.

Turning "neutral position in a war between two belligerent regimes" into "withholding support to the natives" - holds no sway with me. And it's also deeply worrying in terms of its implications for the ability of regions to take independent actions based on their interests. No region is obliged by morality to lend support. It must be in their interests, otherwise they are under no obligation to act. Could it be made to be in their interests to act? Yes, absolutely. But is it by necessity? No.

You can hold on to your absolutist moral principles with "the rest of us" - but I'd rather have my freedom, thank you very much.

NES, I've already indicated that I'm not going to carry on with this pointless argument and that I regret starting it in the first place. None of it is relevant to the current situation. But please feel free to continue arguing with thin air, if you'd like.

You do make somewhat a habit of starting arguments you later regret.

[Valrifell]

But but but.... justice and democracy....

Just nice little slogans for them

Oh the irony

[Framania]

is the lazarus in exile still part of the FRA?

[Ainin]

is the lazarus in exile still part of the FRA?

The FRA released a statement here.

[Zenya]

But but but.... justice and democracy....

Just nice little slogans for them

Oh the irony

I've actually created a prosperous democratic system domestically ^_^
As for Laz, I preffer an iron fist that likes TCB to an iron fist in a velvet glove that hates TCB :3 Their calls for democracy and justice are just bullshit, the purges will of course continue under their system.

Hopefully their chairman elections can get a turnout of over 15 people

[Valrifell]

Oh the irony

I've actually created a prosperous democratic system domestically ^_^

Just out of curiousity, how long have you been supreme leader?

[Fatdul]

Oh the irony

I've actually created a prosperous democratic system domestically ^_^
As for Laz, I preffer an iron fist that likes TCB to an iron fist in a velvet glove that hates TCB :3 Their calls for democracy and justice are just bullshit, the purges will of course continue under their system.

Hopefully their chairman elections can get a turnout of over 15 people

And how many people elected A Mean Old Man?

[Zenya]

I've actually created a prosperous democratic system domestically ^_^

Just out of curiousity, how long have you been supreme leader?

My office is President. I am currently serving my 2nd term in this office, the last election being in February and the next opening on May 1st. Both my predecessors (I served as Minister of Foriegn Affairs under both) served 2 terms as well.

[Great Brigantia]

Just out of curiousity, how long have you been supreme leader?

My office is President. I am currently serving my 2nd term in this office, the last election being in February and the next opening on May 1st. Both my predecessors (I served as Minister of Foriegn Affairs under both) served 2 terms as well.

I am 100% certain that The Communist Bloc has its own threads in which you can stroke your ego and boast of your accomplishments.

[Funkadelia]

Hopefully their chairman elections can get a turnout of over 15 people

And who voted for Stujenske?

[Zenya]

My office is President. I am currently serving my 2nd term in this office, the last election being in February and the next opening on May 1st. Both my predecessors (I served as Minister of Foriegn Affairs under both) served 2 terms as well.

I am 100% certain that The Communist Bloc has its own threads in which you can stroke your ego and boast of your accomplishments.

If they exist, I'd love to see them x)

But lets be frank, I have accomplished something significant with TCB. A massive portion of the responsiblity lies on me, but I greatly enjoy keeping everyone within our community comfortable and taken care of, otherwise I would not be deserving of the titles that the people have given me. If they are not pleased, I am not pleased. A strong social connection exists between myself and the people that I represent.

But this is all probably going a little off topic. I'm open to discussion of it in private, IRC, our GP thread, etc.

[Toronina]

-Snip-

And we trust the words of Balder now? A place who we know is under control of the NPO, why should we trust your words Somerset?