The Raven Post: Regional Contest!

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I dunno, I tried to run embassies for Sicarius, and maybe it was just because we did little of note besides raid (which was all posted in GP) and hang out on skype, but I always found embassies more of a drag to set up and think about updating then a rewarding source of interaction. I hung out a minimal bit on Albion's forums, mostly lurking, but always has better luck actually moving to regions and/or TG'ing people (or joining skype groups) if I wanted interactions.

That may also be in part because my main non-home network blocks all forums, including this one.

[Pollaetorian]

Multiple citizenship is just as easy to obtain allows individuals much greater access if you really want to learn more about a region.

[Trinnien]

I've stopped by and posted in most of Europeia's major contacts forums (still have some more to go), posted an intro. But mostly, I've just tried to make sure that I interact via IRC and Skype, and now also getting involved in forums like Gameplay. Mostly, I think its about accessibility and willingness to listen. I don't have to agree with you, but I do have to make myself available to hear your argument/PoV and listen respectfully. Or at least... that's a good start.

[Drop Your Pants]

Multiple citizenship is just as easy to obtain allows individuals much greater access if you really want to learn more about a region.

Turning the embassy on their forum into a spam section also helps

[Glen-Rhodes]

None of you are known because you served as ambassadors, is the point I'm making. You became influential players for other reasons, largely because of involvement in R/D, becoming delegate of a GCR, or inserting yourself in Gameplay debates.

If you really want to get involved in the whole inter-regional political game, being an ambassador isn't the way to do it. Finding a mentor and arguing on here is how you do it, if we're being honest with ourselves. Getting in arguments with people like Onder or Cormac or Rachel or me or whoever is actually detrimental to serving as an ambassador, because those assignments are given with the assumption that you'll cause as few problems as possible for your boss. But most who actually make a name for themselves in this game do so by not just rocking the boat, but flipping it over completely.

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[Lord Ravenclaw]

I became known as an Ambassador; everything else came after that. I miss the old days where I was a nameless ambassador, but the game is so much more interesting these days.

[Glen-Rhodes]

You became known as a Minister.


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[Ambroscus Koth]

Contrary to popular belief, mindlessly repeating something doesn't make it true.

[Klopstock]

If you really want to get involved in the whole inter-regional political game, being an ambassador isn't the way to do it. Finding a mentor and arguing on here is how you do it, if we're being honest with ourselves.

Arguing in Gameplay has little to do with inter-regional politics. Regions and people share information, updates, and post stuff here; and there's certainly some value to that. But the game isn't played at the water cooler. Inter-regional politics still predominantly happen between regions and organizations, or players who still largely think and act in terms of regions or groups they're associated with. Gameplay offers a spotlight, sure, but what appears on stage reflects what's going on in the wider world.

Getting in arguments with people like Onder...

That has never been a path to anything.

[Zaolat]

Even if you don't agree and can't deal with walls of text, Onder has good arguments and he plays the game.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Getting in arguments with people like Onder...

That has never been a path to anything.

Except a migraine.

[Solorni]

Even if you don't agree and can't deal with walls of text, Onder has good arguments and he plays the game.

I totally agree with this.

One of the things I have always found interesting is how he has generally been one of the only leftists in LKE and TNI, which is probably not something most defenders likely realise.

[Glen-Rhodes]

If you really want to get involved in the whole inter-regional political game, being an ambassador isn't the way to do it. Finding a mentor and arguing on here is how you do it, if we're being honest with ourselves.

Arguing in Gameplay has little to do with inter-regional politics. Regions and people share information, updates, and post stuff here; and there's certainly some value to that. But the game isn't played at the water cooler. Inter-regional politics still predominantly happen between regions and organizations, or players who still largely think and act in terms of regions or groups they're associated with. Gameplay offers a spotlight, sure, but what appears on stage reflects what's going on in the wider world.

Getting in arguments with people like Onder...

That has never been a path to anything.

Arguing in this forum is 80% of the Gameplay politics lol... Arguing on IRC is the other 20%. Why do you guys try to make this more complicated than it is? The only reason people are taken seriously is if they're a big delegate, control a large army, or make a splash here. Somebody who just chills in their region's forum and behind closed doors isn't going to become very well known.

You can name any prominent player, and I promise you there's an incredibly good chance they're prominent for one of those 3 reasons.

Nobody ever made anything for themselves in this game by posting unread foreign updates in embassy subforums. I'll repeat that forever because it's true.

Also, the notion that Gameplay politics isn't almost entirely on the personal level goes against pretty much everything that's happened the past several years. You don't see people crying about the UDL now that Unibot's not here. You don't see anti-imperialism at the forefront after Onder got his legs chopped off. Personalities matter a hell of a lot more than anything else.

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[Cormac Stark]

Also, the notion that Gameplay politics isn't almost entirely on the personal level goes against pretty much everything that's happened the past several years. You don't see people crying about the UDL now that Unibot's not here. You don't see anti-imperialism at the forefront after Onder got his legs chopped off. Personalities matter a hell of a lot more than anything else.

You're citing these examples as proof that gameplay politics are entirely personal when in fact there are other factors in play.

You're ignoring the UDL's collapse into months of relative inactivity under Mahaj, from which it has never fully recovered (to say the least). Is it seeing a resurgence under Ravania? Yes, of a kind, but a quiet resurgence and it's still a shadow of what it once was in terms of both membership and activity. There isn't much there to criticize. Of course in an organization like the UDL it's going to matter who's leading it; it's basically a military autocracy, but that's the only extent that it matters. Had the UDL been doing the same things it was doing under Unibot under either Mahaj or Ravania, it would have faced the same criticisms, and in fact it did face plenty of criticisms under Mahaj until he reformed the way the UDL interacted with Feeders and Sinkers. It faces less criticism under Ravania not only because it's more quiet, but because all the UDL does now is defend instead of constantly meddling in the politics of Feeders and Sinkers and attacking other defenders. That's not anything to do with how much people like the Chief of the Band and everything to do with UDL policy.

And you're just completely off base on the imperialist sphere, reflecting your ignorance and biases rather than reality. After riding high for a long time that sphere has been relatively quiet since dissolution of the UIAF, the complete collapse of activity in The New Inquisition, and Albion's departure from the sphere, leaving The LKE and its lesser known British allies as the only active imperialist regions and The LKE as the only truly relevant one. Onder is certainly an important figure in imperialism -- more important than ever now, in fact -- but whatever "chopping" you perceive has nothing, or at least almost nothing, to do with the imperialist decline. Regions and ideologies rise and fall and rise again in NationStates, usually in proportion to the effort being put into them not by individual leaders but by entire communities. We'll likely see imperialism rise again and, with it, anti-imperialist criticism -- with or without Onder, but certainly only with the input and activity of many others.

(Ugh, I've edited this post like six times). You're also ignoring another factor in the decline of anti-imperialism, which is the NPO anti-imperialist charade coming to an end after their decision to pursue the imperialist conquest of Lazarus. The collapse of the NPO-Defender alliance of convenience, which was the driving force of anti-imperialist propaganda (most of which emanated from Lazarus in the PRL era), matters. You can't just chalk it all up to "Onder got owned so now no one is anti-imperialist," because that's not even accurate and in any case it's so much more complicated than that. It's astonishing to me that anyone puts you in charge of their foreign affairs, ever, given how simplistically you view the NationStates world.

[Pierconium]

Surely the NPO is too inactive, irrelevant, or whatever else you always spout on about to have had any actual impact in Gameplay politics, right?

[Solorni]

You're ignoring the UDL's collapse into months of relative inactivity under Mahaj, from which it has never fully recovered (to say the least). Is it seeing a resurgence under Ravania? Yes, of a kind, but a quiet resurgence and it's still a shadow of what it once was in terms of both membership and activity.

I think it would have struggled mightily almost no matter who was chosen to lead it after. It was Unibots relentless energy and ambition which allowed it to reach heights higher than any other created defender organization since the FRA. None have come close.

Surely the NPO is too inactive, irrelevant, or whatever else you always spout on about to have had any actual impact in Gameplay politics, right?

All press is good press? But yeah, there is a bit of a contradiction in the criticism.

[Cormac Stark]

Surely the NPO is too inactive, irrelevant, or whatever else you always spout on about to have had any actual impact in Gameplay politics, right?

You've since purged most of the people who were creating your anti-imperialist activity (Feux, AMOM, et al.), so yes, you probably are too inactive and irrelevant now. The problem with the NPO is when things get controversial, you throw your most active leadership under the bus (Gaspo, Karpathos, Milograd, Feux, AMOM), which leads to inactivity again in what seems to be a never-ending cycle. Maybe you should just embrace being villains instead of purging people who bring you activity, or find active people who won't want to play the villains. But letting extremely active leaders be villains and then purging them when there are consequences is ridiculous and counterproductive.

I think it would have struggled mightily almost no matter who was chosen to lead it after. It was Unibots relentless energy and ambition which allowed it to reach heights higher than any other created defender organization since the FRA. None have come close.

I think there is some truth to this, though what really propelled the UDL to its heights was Unibot's ability to recruit gameplayers from non-traditional sources (the WA and RP communities). If defenders could find someone else who could effectively do that, I believe they could reproduce the UDL's success without the firestorm of drama Unibot always brought to the table along with the updaters he brought.

[Solorni]

I'm far more skeptical. There have been so many defenders, and yet only Unibot could really conjure that level of success of revival in defender fortunes. It seems it might be quite rare.

[Pierconium]

Surely the NPO is too inactive, irrelevant, or whatever else you always spout on about to have had any actual impact in Gameplay politics, right?

You've since purged most of the people who were creating your anti-imperialist activity (Feux, AMOM, et al.), so yes, you probably are too inactive and irrelevant now. The problem with the NPO is when things get controversial, you throw your most active leadership under the bus (Gaspo, Karpathos, Milograd, Feux, AMOM), which leads to inactivity again in what seems to be a never-ending cycle. Maybe you should just embrace being villains instead of purging people who bring you activity, or find active people who won't want to play the villains. But letting extremely active leaders be villains and then purging them when there are consequences is ridiculous and counterproductive.

Hmm. Yes, you must be correct. Since those nations left The Pacific we have seen a sizable increase in offsite activity, the resurgence of a large RP community, the re-establishment of our military, the reintroduction of the provincial system, and the largest WA growth in years.

Something about all that doesn't add up. Maybe you can figure it out for us since we are obviously too inactive to make sense of it ourselves.

None of those people you mention were villains. If the NPO wanted to be the villains then we would be. Most of the 'villains' in this realm cut their teeth on my methodologies. I certainly don't need any pretenders to play the part if that is the role I wish to have. But, being the villain gets boring.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Surely the NPO is too inactive, irrelevant, or whatever else you always spout on about to have had any actual impact in Gameplay politics, right?

You've since purged most of the people who were creating your anti-imperialist activity (Feux, AMOM, et al.), so yes, you probably are too inactive and irrelevant now. The problem with the NPO is when things get controversial, you throw your most active leadership under the bus (Gaspo, Karpathos, Milograd, Feux, AMOM), which leads to inactivity again in what seems to be a never-ending cycle. Maybe you should just embrace being villains instead of purging people who bring you activity, or find active people who won't want to play the villains. But letting extremely active leaders be villains and then purging them when there are consequences is ridiculous and counterproductive.

You are struggling to disassociate the public, Gameplay board and IRC activity of those individuals, with the internal activity of the actual NPO region. Right now, the The Pacific is almost completely silent in IRC and on the main NS boards, but second only to TNP for internal activity amongst other GCRs on the forum, and (at an educated guess) probably second only to Albion NS-wide in the Skype chat. There's little desire from general Pacifican members to participate in the traditional public areas because there's nothing out here that anyone needs.

[Karputsk]

Even if you don't agree and can't deal with walls of text, Onder has good arguments and he plays the game.

One of the things I have always found interesting is how he has generally been one of the only leftists in LKE and TNI, which is probably not something most defenders likely realise.

I can guarantee you that a lot of Defenders have shared a chuckle over a particular screenshotted post of Onder that makes it plainly clear how leftist he is.

[Guy]

Even if you don't agree and can't deal with walls of text, Onder has good arguments and he plays the game.

Definitely not. Onder's walls of texts are intentionally a mass of gish gallop, complete with various logical fallacies. Their only intent is to frustrate the arguer into giving up.

[Solorni]

Even if you don't agree and can't deal with walls of text, Onder has good arguments and he plays the game.

Definitely not. Onder's walls of texts are intentionally a mass of gish gallop, complete with various logical fallacies. Their only intent is to frustrate the arguer into giving up.

This sounds a lot like sour grapes. I don't always agree with Onder, but he is a great debater and has defeated many NSers in such encounters.

[Onderkelkia]

Even if you don't agree and can't deal with walls of text, Onder has good arguments and he plays the game.

Definitely not. Onder's walls of texts are intentionally a mass of gish gallop, complete with various logical fallacies. Their only intent is to frustrate the arguer into giving up.

I do not know whether to be a little bemused or highly offended that you actually believe I would dedicate time towards "intentionally" producing nonsense. Frankly, I myself often do not make much of the quality of what I read in these forums, but I don't assume that the author deliberately writes rubbish.

Whether or not my posts meet your description of them is a matter for individuals to come to their own conclusions on; preferably others will do this by offering arguments in relation to specific posts, rather than simply making derogatory general assertions. Regardless, I do not intend any such thing.

My "only intent" has been to communicate a set of arguments, sometimes on behalf of the LKE or its sphere. I do so robustly and typically address each specific point raised by a critic. The "walls of text" normally stem from that process of scrutinising the opponent's case. This is not an underhanded trick.

[Flanderlion]

You've since purged most of the people who were creating your anti-imperialist activity (Feux, AMOM, et al.), so yes, you probably are too inactive and irrelevant now. The problem with the NPO is when things get controversial, you throw your most active leadership under the bus (Gaspo, Karpatehos, Milograd, Feux, AMOM), which leads to inactivity again in what seems to be a never-ending cycle. Maybe you should just embrace being villains instead of purging people who bring you activity, or find active people who won't want to play the villains. But letting extremely active leaders be villains and then purging them when there are consequences is ridiculous and counterproductive.

You are struggling to disassociate the public, Gameplay board and IRC activity of those individuals, with the internal activity of the actual NPO region. Right now, the The Pacific is almost completely silent in IRC and on the main NS boards, but second only to TNP for internal activity amongst other GCRs on the forum, and (at an educated guess) probably second only to Albion NS-wide in the Skype chat. There's little desire from general Pacifican members to participate in the traditional public areas because there's nothing out here that anyone needs.

Albion Chat has periods of great activity, and periods of non-activity. NPOffical Skype Chat is more active in general than it (as in more messages posted each day). NS NPO doesn't use IRC, perhaps you're getting confused with either the CN NPO, or more likely an older chat. We removed the WFE link to an old IRC chat (which wasn't even the official current one) recently.