Do stamps kill the game?

[Enfaru]

viewtopic.php?p=19776277#p19776277

So I recently spotted a statement by Scissoro, regarding how to improve your region. Overall, I approved of it, but then, there was a mention that Stamps were "game killing". Considering what stamps actually do, I disagree with that idea because so far as I can tell, they don't get any precedence over normal telegrams, it just means that there are more telegrams circulating around.

How have stamps impacted the game? I've been here before they were introduced but my memory might be a little fuzzy, but i can honestly not tell the difference. Of course, I wasn't running a region back then, so maybe I'm missing something.

[Scissoro]

Let me reply to you directly. This is just my observation.

I love recruiting, been playing NS for 8 years, never had a problem getting nations to join my region.... until stamps came out.

From what I notice, is that regions who buy stamps grow to massive sizes (which is why you have many more massive regions than NS ever used to have. Nations now ignore recruitment telegrams because they get a TON of the stamps. Furthermore, regions just starting out have a harder time recruiting than they used to because the playing field is no longer relavent. I bought Max's book, I sure am not going to spend money to send messages. Likewise, when a nation like me goes to recruit, I am competing against all those instantly-sent stamps. I call that game-killing. That is why I developed other techniques to get nations to adapt.

These are just my observations. I prefer the 2005 NS game, which is all but unrecognizable, except for the fact we still have 'nations' and still have 'regions'.

Either way, what is is.

[Enfaru]

That isn't what I've found. I've found that havin slower telegrams has worked in my favour because it pushes out the ones with stamps and generally arrives later. Sure, early bird gets the worm, but those who like to look around and weigh up the recruitment telegrams... aren't they really the members you want?

[Shizensky]

The last I've heard is that there are 3 queues for recruiting telegrams: one for those sent manually, one for those sent through API, and the last for those sent using stamps. Invitations sent to new nations are sent by rotating through each of these queues. The advantage then goes to the queue with the lowest line, which would be manual recruiting.

[Great Kleomentia]

Let me reply to you directly. This is just my observation.

I love recruiting, been playing NS for 8 years, never had a problem getting nations to join my region.... until stamps came out.

From what I notice, is that regions who buy stamps grow to massive sizes (which is why you have many more massive regions than NS ever used to have. Nations now ignore recruitment telegrams because they get a TON of the stamps. Furthermore, regions just starting out have a harder time recruiting than they used to because the playing field is no longer relavent. I bought Max's book, I sure am not going to spend money to send messages. Likewise, when a nation like me goes to recruit, I am competing against all those instantly-sent stamps. I call that game-killing. That is why I developed other techniques to get nations to adapt.

These are just my observations. I prefer the 2005 NS game, which is all but unrecognizable, except for the fact we still have 'nations' and still have 'regions'.

Either way, what is is.

I agree completely.

[Totally Not Leningrad Union]

No. Without stamps, I would have never gotten CAS so big.

I can see the argument against stamps, but for those of us who are busy with work and/or school, manual recruiting just doesn't work out well. Stamps also bring in money for Maxy so that's good.

[Great Kleomentia]

No. Without stamps, I would have never gotten CAS so big.

I can see the argument against stamps, but for those of us who are busy with work and/or school, manual recruiting just doesn't work out well. Stamps also bring in money for Maxy so that's good.

But bring an unfair advantage. Thus they kill the game.

[Kyuji]

No. Without stamps, I would have never gotten CAS so big.

I can see the argument against stamps, but for those of us who are busy with work and/or school, manual recruiting just doesn't work out well. Stamps also bring in money for Maxy so that's good.

But bring an unfair advantage. Thus they kill the game.

Unless you can gain them through means other then payment

[Shizensky]

No. Without stamps, I would have never gotten CAS so big.

I can see the argument against stamps, but for those of us who are busy with work and/or school, manual recruiting just doesn't work out well. Stamps also bring in money for Maxy so that's good.

But bring an unfair advantage. Thus they kill the game.

There are still other advantages for manual recruiting now that the queue rotation has been introduced, so no, it doesn't kill the game. The recent change made manual recruiting a more successful option than it has been for a long time.

[Glen-Rhodes]

This has been discussed to death before, with no consensus being reached. People who recruited before stamps tend to hate them. People who only use stamps tend to like them.

Whether they "kill the game" is irrelevant. First, regions are still growing, and recruiting has never been easy. Second, telegram stamps are the best of a bunch of bad options. Getting rid of stamps won't get rid of mass automated recruitment, so even if stamps are "killing" the game, without a complete paradigm shift in how regions grow and thrive, the underlying problem Scissoro (and many before them) see isn't ever going to go away.

[Benevolent Thomas]

The system has gotten more balanced since they were released. At first they were very problematic, but then they were beat out by API Recruiting via NS++ (which was far more widespread). It wasn't game killing, but it was definitely a problem. I think stamps are a good thing these days for things such as WA Campaigns and the like. It has gotten a lot better in the last few months, but I still think I prefer the good old fashioned manual TG only system for recruiting

[Reploid Productions]

Another angle to consider is whether or not having a large region is actually a "win" condition. It really isn't; having the ability to build a big region doesn't let you "win" Nationstates... it just means you have a large region, and it is by no means a universal goal.

Moreso than merely recruiting nations, a better metric to look at might be nation retention. Sure, the guy shelling out for stamps or using the API and a script may hit more inboxes and seem to get bigger, but what's the retention and turnover rate? Are nations that follow a recruiting mass-TG more or less likely to stick around long term, or do they have a bad habit of being active for just a little while before they CTE from inactivity? If you watch any of the really massive regions around update, most experience sometimes sizable daily die-offs from these types of short-term players.

[Southern Bellz]

Stamps and recruitment scripts are/were the worst.

[Darwinish Brentsylvania]

It helps the game via the money, yes, but it also spams up new nations inboxes, with long, details paragraphs that a new nation would possibly read, you know, if they weren't bombarded by 15 others. I don't bother with feeder recruitment, anyway.

[Enfaru]

Tell me more about that rotating system.... does it include templates? (Where do I find the sticky >.<;)

Reploid, I do take your point about winning NationStates and completely agree with you in principle. Take me for instance I want to build a cohesive, friendly and interactive region, but I want as many people to take part in that as possible. In order to achieve my goal, by definition the region has to be infinitely large, an impossible dream perhaps. But having lots more people around makes me feel better and there is a lot more for me to interact with. (Being selfish here).

Still you make a good point against mass recruitment, but then, I don't know an awful lot of people on NationStates who aren't already really attached to their own regions... oh I got a suggestion...that's coming right up.

[Scissoro]

Tell me more about that rotating system.... does it include templates? (Where do I find the sticky >.<;)

Reploid, I do take your point about winning NationStates and completely agree with you in principle. Take me for instance I want to build a cohesive, friendly and interactive region, but I want as many people to take part in that as possible. In order to achieve my goal, by definition the region has to be infinitely large, an impossible dream perhaps. But having lots more people around makes me feel better and there is a lot more for me to interact with. (Being selfish here).

Still you make a good point against mass recruitment, but then, I don't know an awful lot of people on NationStates who aren't already really attached to their own regions... oh I got a suggestion...that's coming right up.

Have them send a puppet.

[Venico]

The problem with stamps/scripts is that it no longer requires work to make a region grow (nation wise at least). When a nation used to be created it meant that their inbox would get hit with whoever was recruiting at the time. So that was usually two to three telegrams. Maybe more if it was a busy night. So it meant that the new nation wasn't getting flooded with TGs that now become almost meaningless. Instead of nations going to active regions they're going to any region who can set up a script or pay $30 a month.

[All Good People]

Telegram stamps change the game, but does not kill the game. Just like every other feature change or addition. Some changes are for the better, some for the worse. But most are just change to which players need to adapt. I think the queue balancing that's been done has helped give traditional recruiting better footing than after the initial implementation.

Still, I don't like seeing that regions that have been around for a decade now need to spend $30/month to stay relevant. It is a sort of disrespect for all that those players have contributed over NS history.

And yet, stamps are still underutilized...their potential remains unrealized. Which is fine with me, as it means there are still new things for players to try.

[The Leningrad Union]

Telegram stamps change the game, but does not kill the game. Just like every other feature change or addition. Some changes are for the better, some for the worse. But most are just change to which players need to adapt. I think the queue balancing that's been done has helped give traditional recruiting better footing than after the initial implementation.

Still, I don't like seeing that regions that have been around for a decade now need to spend $30/month to stay relevant. It is a sort of disrespect for all that those players have contributed over NS history.

And yet, stamps are still underutilized...their potential remains unrealized. Which is fine with me, as it means there are still new things for players to try.

Basically this, additions can be both good and bad.

[Southern Bellz]

Any system where you can pay (or script your way) to out perform good politics is terrible for a political simulator.

[Shizensky]

That's actually brilliant political simulation, though.

[Shadow Afforess]

This has been discussed to death before, with no consensus being reached. People who recruited before stamps tend to hate them. People who only use stamps tend to like them.

Whether they "kill the game" is irrelevant. First, regions are still growing, and recruiting has never been easy. Second, telegram stamps are the best of a bunch of bad options. Getting rid of stamps won't get rid of mass automated recruitment, so even if stamps are "killing" the game, without a complete paradigm shift in how regions grow and thrive, the underlying problem Scissoro (and many before them) see isn't ever going to go away.

I think this is the best assessment here.

There are plenty dreamers who would like to see radical changes and restrictions, but they will simply create a black market for recruitment scripts and methods which would ultimately be even less desirable and less fair than the current system.

Any system where you can pay (or script your way) to out perform good politics is terrible for a political simulator.

Let's not kid ourselves. People with more money will always have better access to resources. Sure, if there were no stamps, then one tiny advantage a wealthier player like myself has is gone. But I also can afford a top of the line internet connection, internet servers, software, etc. The players with the most money are always at an advantage. Don't kid yourself that you can fix that with a few minor changes in a nation simulator.

If anything, stamps bring down costs and access to a more fair level where everyone can recruit. Before stamps, I had a massive recruitment advantage. Now I only have a minor one.

tl;dr Capitalism > Communism.

[Southern Bellz]

You're really comparing the ability granted via buying telegram stamps to faster internet. Ugh

[Unibot III]

This has been discussed to death before, with no consensus being reached. People who recruited before stamps tend to hate them. People who only use stamps tend to like them.

Whether they "kill the game" is irrelevant. First, regions are still growing, and recruiting has never been easy. Second, telegram stamps are the best of a bunch of bad options. Getting rid of stamps won't get rid of mass automated recruitment, so even if stamps are "killing" the game, without a complete paradigm shift in how regions grow and thrive, the underlying problem Scissoro (and many before them) see isn't ever going to go away.

I think this is the best assessment here.

There are plenty dreamers who would like to see radical changes and restrictions, but they will simply create a black market for recruitment scripts and methods which would ultimately be even less desirable and less fair than the current system.

Any system where you can pay (or script your way) to out perform good politics is terrible for a political simulator.

Let's not kid ourselves. People with more money will always have better access to resources. Sure, if there were no stamps, then one tiny advantage a wealthier player like myself has is gone. But I also can afford a top of the line internet connection, internet servers, software, etc. The players with the most money are always at an advantage. Don't kid yourself that you can fix that with a few minor changes in a nation simulator.

If anything, stamps bring down costs and access to a more fair level where everyone can recruit. Before stamps, I had a massive recruitment advantage. Now I only have a minor one.

tl;dr Capitalism > Communism.

The manual recruitment system was also capitalistic in its structure. It relied on human capital and gave a competitive advantage to the existing monopolies on human capital.

We haven't seen a more socialistic approach to recruitment, which is what I've advocated for.

[The Leningrad Union]

I think this is the best assessment here.

There are plenty dreamers who would like to see radical changes and restrictions, but they will simply create a black market for recruitment scripts and methods which would ultimately be even less desirable and less fair than the current system.



Let's not kid ourselves. People with more money will always have better access to resources. Sure, if there were no stamps, then one tiny advantage a wealthier player like myself has is gone. But I also can afford a top of the line internet connection, internet servers, software, etc. The players with the most money are always at an advantage. Don't kid yourself that you can fix that with a few minor changes in a nation simulator.

If anything, stamps bring down costs and access to a more fair level where everyone can recruit. Before stamps, I had a massive recruitment advantage. Now I only have a minor one.

tl;dr Capitalism > Communism.

The manual recruitment system was also capitalistic in its structure. It relied on human capital and gave a competitive advantage to the existing monopolies on human capital.

We haven't seen a more socialistic approach to recruitment, which is what I've advocated for.

As usual, Unibot sticks his IRL views and morals into a GP situation!