The OFO: good or bad for Osiris

[Venico]

If that's your problem, you forgot to include those who helped or did it themselves. *looks at the list of your conspirators*

Yeah, that's an incomplete answer.

"Conspirators" also known as members of the community who helped found a stable government and usher in the best age Osiris has seen in a year? Yup, those darned conspirators. They do the darndest things.

Also your bans had delegate approval.

[Biyah]

Bingo.

There were four or five, in two years. All of them had extensive reasoning, approved by government. Except for Gov, who was universally blocked.

[Unibot III]

Uni - the day that I listen to you, is the day I'm falling over dead.

Remind me to mark it down on my calender.

If anyone in this game is half the ass Im claimed to be, that would be you.

So on a scale from 1 to 10, that would make me a 5 on the Biyah Scale. Good to know.

[Ambroscus Koth]

I was beginning to miss Unibot and Biyah butting heads. Makes for a great late night read.

*Grabs popcorn*

[Cormacville]

List the people I banned, without Delegate approval. And then list the offenses I gave.

The offenses are easy enough. Aside from over two years of general manipulation, you, Dali, and NK perpetrated a coup against Osiris in December 2012, but beforehand you ensured that all of you + Neenee and Nevadar had rigged the Sepatarchy and Council of Ma'at well enough to be able to evade conviction for it -- or at least make everyone believe you could evade conviction for it, thus securing the pardon you received (which probably also involved some sort of blackmail, God knows).

As for who you banned without trial, I'm referring specifically to Lemon Love. Yeah, you had Delegate approval, but neither that approval nor the ban were legal. And hell, he hadn't even overthrown the Delegate yet so he was less a criminal than you were.

[Biyah]

Awesome. You turn a request for the offensives I gave -about the people I banned- into my personal crimes. I like it, you're getting better at spin. Nevermind that I disagree with everything you've said.

And banning LL was bad because, of course, hardcore proof that Lemon Love was a plant and undercover is nothing.

Of course.

So, you and Asta disagreed with one person banned that the entire Admin Staff agreed to ban (I was the spokesman, lets keep in mind that all of us agreed though), and we had government approval. Funny that you turned it into part of your political platform, eh.

[Cormacville]

Awesome. You turn a request for the offensives I gave -about the people I banned- into my personal crimes. I like it, you're getting better at spin. Nevermind that I disagree with everything you've said.

And banning LL was bad because, of course, hardcore proof that Lemon Love was a plant and undercover is nothing.

Of course.

So, you and Asta disagreed with one person banned that the entire Admin Staff agreed to ban (I was the spokesman, lets keep in mind that all of us agreed though), and we had government approval. Funny that you turned it into part of your political platform, eh.

Yes, it's funny how respect for the rule of law might become part of a political platform. What underhanded, despicable subversion!

[Biyah]

Protection of the board, padewan

I notice that I'm banned from your new board and the region without trial. Where is this 'rule of law' you speak of?

Uh oh... that would be called 'hypocrisy'.

Edit: added a line. Hit enter too quickly, tis late.

[Biyah]

2nd post to clarify.

The admin staff bent over backwards to give you the trial you wanted. Asta's secondary board was available for a sequestered trial, and he would have been allowed on it, updates to the citizens would have been provided. Sequestering a threat is not unreasaonble, nor even objectionable, unless you're trying to score points. I notice you didn't run with that idea, it was too easy to just ignore it.

*wiggles his eyebrows*

[Cormacville]

You aren't a citizen of the Osiris Fraternal Order. Lemon Love was a citizen of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris. You were banned during a period in which Osiris had no constitutional government and no laws; Lemon Love was banned despite the clear contradiction that ban posed to the KRO constitution. Apples and oranges.

Regarding your next point, I authorized the trial to go ahead on the alternate forum. I had Sovreignry file the charges, and he even checked with the Kenbet to see when the trial would happen. It never did, because you had successfully obstructed the entire matter by that point.

[Biyah]

I was quite happy to prepare that trial, actually, or I'd never have come up with a sequestering process. It was a real headache to work with Asta and the Admins and the Kenbet coming up with something that would work. Perhaps you should talk to the Kenbet, whom I never tried to control. As I recall, their level of activity was -always- a concern to Osiris (re: Tim)

Nice way to get around the rule of law. Bull, but nice, sounds awesome. You're getting good at that.

[Sovreignry]

As a note, I, as the prosecutor, was waiting almost a month to hear back from the Kenbet about moving the trial.

[Venico]

I declared war. The region backed me and didn't have a political structure set up for me to formally declare it. I'm sure the Dehsret would be more than willing to affirm the Empire bans if you so wish.

[Biyah]

with your selected government and community? Yes, I'm positive they would

[Biyah]

As a note, I, as the prosecutor, was waiting almost a month to hear back from the Kenbet about moving the trial.

and contrary to popular belief, so was I. I was tired of hearing you (Cormac) whine about it, so I wanted it done and over with.

The Kenbet was inactive. That is -not- my fault.

[Seker]

I declared war. The region backed me and didn't have a political structure set up for me to formally declare it. I'm sure the Dehsret would be more than willing to affirm the Empire bans if you so wish.

Which Deshret?

[Venico]

We lost Asta and Georgie, you lost Tim and Mahaj. Evens out, a bit. Also I didn't choose the community of Osiris, wish I could have. I would have no need to build my own UCR then I would just declare myself Ruler of Osiris and force my ideals upon the region.

@Seker the one that is currently set up in the region of Osiris.

[Dalimbar]

As a personal comment about this subject: Get rid of JAL, and you guys might be able to pass with your propaganda. Seriously guys, JAL?

[Cormacville]

As a personal comment about this subject: Get rid of JAL, and you guys might be able to pass with your propaganda. Seriously guys, JAL?

JAL is a respected member of the GCR community. He is a citizen of The North Pacific and Minister of Interior (Security) in Balder.

This is not even to mention that he has served as Delegate of four GCRs and has done more for the population of The Rejected Realms than anyone else in NationStates history. He deserves to be commended, really.

[Anumia]

Perhaps then the solution is as simple as more transparency and consistency...an explanation of why prominent defenders were banjected. From the outside looking in, it simply looked like Mahaj had been randomly banjected around the same time the treason charges against Cameron Romefeller were dropped. I'm guessing that the region that declared support to overthrow the OFO is Spiritus...in that case, why was Horse approved as a Citizen? Why was Nox not allowed to join as a security risk (at least that was what I was told by Cormac in one of our many debates on the OFO on this forum), and then allowed to? What is the OFO's current position on Spiritans applying for Citizenship at this time, even? Now that a number of months have passed since the emergence of the OFO, perhaps it's time to look back at past decisions and check to see if they're still necessary or relevant.

And I know perfectly well that that any of those actions are technically legal. I'm pointing them out because I've been told by a number of OFO officials/members that the OFO welcomes defenders and wants them to be a part of this new Osiris, but it seems unable or unwilling to assist in the process...apparently now blaming defenders themselves for their lack of participation in the OFO. I'm just pointing out some small areas where improvements can be made if that is a direction the OFO really wants to go in the future. I'm just posting as an outside observer, but blaming defenders for defenders not being around comes off as circular logic. Osiris used to have a defender community of sorts along with others...what happened to it between July and now? I have a hard time believing it's just because of a military alignment change.

Some dialogue to identify why defenders feel the way they do about the OFO may be helpful as well. It seems that that has happened to some extent in this topic already...hopefully it's encouraged in the future.

I'd say that I agree with this. Obviously they have had direct issues with enough specific defenders to have the general case be messy in general, but from the beginning with the whole "subversive defender purge" thing which was really the only foolish part of the opening PR of the OFO, this has been a sticky point in Osirian domestic policy. I believe they probably have things that they would consider more important to work on first, which is why we're still here, but, an internal discussion and then clear explanation on their policy in this area should be forthcoming in the medium term.

[Drop Your Pants]

JAL is a respected member of the GCR community. He is a citizen of The North Pacific and Minister of Interior (Security) in Balder.

I can still remember the week Osiris kicked off a shitstorm at Balder when they let JAL in JAL is the definition of a second chance.

[McMasterdonia]

As a personal comment about this subject: Get rid of JAL, and you guys might be able to pass with your propaganda. Seriously guys, JAL?

JAL is a respected member of the GCR community. He is a citizen of The North Pacific and Minister of Interior (Security) in Balder.

This is not even to mention that he has served as Delegate of four GCRs and has done more for the population of The Rejected Realms than anyone else in NationStates history. He deserves to be commended, really.

I really hope this is sarcastic XD. If not, Jal may be a citizen of TNP, but I definitely doubt that he is respected. We just love to hate him and hate to love him.

[The North Polish Union]

JAL is my favorite GCR Delegate of all time.

[Venico]

Nox was allowed to join because I made her post a public statement affirming the OFO. I did this with any person who wanted to join but had previously declared hostilities. Heck, I even made Todd do it. Horse was not a citizen until very recently when Spiritus rescinded its statement. When this happened, the OFO rescinded its restricted policy on Spiritan citizens. That was the only road block defenders faced getting in and that was only if they were part of Spiritus (and maybe Wintreath too? I can't recall quite clearly but I don't think we ever developed an official policy there.)

As it stands right now I believe any defender can apply for citizenship and expect their citizenship to be processed and accepted. The only exception that I know of is Tim (again, foggy memory but I think we asked the Deshret when Spiritus rescinded its statement whether or not to unban Tim and the answer was no.) As I said in an earlier post, I don't know what happened between Raven and Mahaj but it was enough to make Raven spend a lot of his influence. I'm sure someone has logs somewhere.

AFAIK the offcial policy on defenders is "Apply for citizenship or stfu" which seems pretty transparent to me. =P

[Cormacville]

The difference between now and then in regard to Spiritus and its citizens is that, at the time, Spiritus had declared hostility against the Osiris Fraternal Order. President Wuufu has since rescinded that declaration to the satisfaction of the Osiran government, which means Spiritus no longer falls under the constitutional prohibition -- this isn't arbitrary -- against granting citizenship to anyone with citizenship in a region that has declared hostility against the Osiris Fraternal Order.

I personally don't think there's any need for the OFO to clarify its policy on defenders. Its policy on defenders is that anyone who is not persona non grata is welcome in Osiris and free to apply for citizenship, full stop. However "foolish" some may find the rather accurate initial rhetoric related to "defender subversives," which was only dropped because the community preferred a less blunt approach, there is no reason for the OFO to bend over backward to clarify that we welcome defenders. I don't see Lazarus bending over backward to clarify that it welcomes raiders and imperialists after purging imperialist citizens as subversives.