The Miniluv Messenger: Big Brother is Watching Gameplay

[Onderkelkia]

Additionally, unlike you or Unibot, I have never claimed to believe in a universal concept of GCR/regional protection from external interference.

At least we have on record the opposite of what's been assumed and argued in TSP for years. A little vindication is always nice.

On the contrary, I have always been very frank that I base my views not on universal concepts but on my regions' alliances and relations.

This was as true during the alliance between TNI and TSP as it is now.

If we believed a universal concept of GCR protection, we would not never have been at war with the FRA given its inclusion of TRR (and now Lazarus).

I don't really care about your harping over Lazarus, especially when it makes it painfully obvious that you're only doing it to score points against Unibot. Your position is much weaker when you don't believe GCR sovereignty is worth anything.

It is perfectly obvious that Cormac revealed this information to score points against Belschaft, yet you care about this incident.

The real reason you are avoiding answering me is because in reality the same defences apply in this situation as apply in the situation as for Feux's conversations in Lazarus, but whereas you condemn anyone who invokes as a 'downright joke' you do not condemn Unibot for defending Feux.

The reason I care about Lazarus is because it was allied to TNI and the LKE at the time of the incident - not to mention the scurrilous allegations levied by the NPO and their supporters against the 'Ondersphere' while they carried out their purge - so there is a reason for us to be involved in it. However, that does not mean we should be equally concerned with what happens in regions with which we have no connection. It is the relationships which exist between regions, not external universal concepts that apply to all regions, which determine the policies of regions independent of, inter alia, defender idealism.

[Southern Bellz]

Onder, it's really simple. Do you condemn what Belschaft, God-Emperor, Todd McCloud, and several members of TEP contemplated doing in TSP, or does your political opposition to me (and, perhaps, the political benefits you would have reaped had the conspiracy been successful) make it not a serious issue?

There is an incredibly transparent bias and lack of consistency from a few of you here. How many people lambasted the UDL for what they allegedly did in TSP, with very little evidence to back it up? How many of you are now downplaying the egregiousness of this conspiracy, and how much does it have to do with who the conspirators are and against whom the conspiracy was targeted?

What happened is really messed up and I fully believe The South Pacific is owed an apology from The East Pacific proper and that TEP needs to take accountability for it's members actions. There needs to be consequences if there is any chance to move on from this. To allow a coup attempt of The South Pacific on their forum and not hold their members accountable is unacceptable.

The South Pacific banned Ant for having a position of power in TSP for an entire year when it was found out that they tried to coup TP. I appreciate the personal apologies from the members of TEP.

As far as what UDL did in TSP, let's not rewrite that history. It was pretty similar to this and the UDL apologized for the events, and we've all moved on. Just because some of us dont chronically horde and leak IRC logs does not means events did not happen.

As far as how Laz and the OFO came to power, a lot of us are not fans of it, but it happened and we have to accept political realities at some point. The fact is, TEP tried and failed to coup TSP and now that their is a smoking gun they are in a position where they can take accountability and we can start healing and if not well the saying 'with friends like these' come to mind.

[Southern Bellz]

Also, GR and Unibot are not the only members/view of the nations of The South Pacific. Their opinions of the matter don't invalidate the fact that what actually happened was not ok.

[Joshua Ravenclaw]

Onder, it's really simple. Do you condemn what Belschaft, God-Emperor, Todd McCloud, and several members of TEP contemplated doing in TSP, or does your political opposition to me (and, perhaps, the political benefits you would have reaped had the conspiracy been successful) make it not a serious issue?

What happened is really messed up and I fully believe The South Pacific is owed an apology from The East Pacific proper and that TEP needs to take accountability for it's members actions. There needs to be consequences if there is any chance to move on from this. To allow a coup attempt of The South Pacific on their forum and not hold their members accountable is unacceptable.

As far as how Laz and the OFO came to power, a lot of us are not fans of it, but it happened and we have to accept political realities at some point. The fact is, TEP tried and failed to coup TSP and now that their is a smoking gun they are in a position where they can take accountability and we can start healing and if not well the saying 'with friends like these' come to mind.

Good Evening. As one of the Advisors to the Delegate of the East Pacific for the matters of Foreign Affairs, I would like to clarify a few things.

Firstly, The East Pacific did not try to coup The South Pacific. Your allegation stating so is wholly and factually inaccurate, and I, as a citizen of both regions take offence to the accusation. At no time was I made aware of the situation that Cormac published, and the same can be said for a considerable number of citizens in The East Pacific.

As for how this entire mess was possible? Todd McCloud is an Administrator on the The East Pacific forum, and has the authority to create forums without oversight from others and set permissions as he sees fit - this situation wasn't a "Who wants to coup The South Pacific because Uni/GR?" it was something that the vast majority of people were unaware of, including myself until this article was published.

As noted previously on the South Pacific Forum, I have followed applicable protocol in the South Pacific when voicing displeasure or disagreement with the Government, as can be noted in the previous recall, debates and minutiae of discussions. Before I face accusations that I was in fact involved (as I seem to get these accusations a lot lately), I would remind everyone that when I voiced my views on the Osiris-Lazarus war, and how the Deshret had no right to decide the fate of Lazarenes and their community because communities are by virtue, sovereign, I was banjected from the region and declared Persona Non-Grata by the Pharaoh at the time until Councillors of the Deshret came to my defence - I consider the sovereignty of a regional community to be an unalienable right, and is one of the reasons I go extremely far to practice duality, which explains my numerous cousins and siblings you see about the place.

Second, I think people are vastly overstating the event, but I'm not going to argue on the morality of it, I've made my disapproval on it clear to people who need to know and I will not be restating those views in Gameplay.

Thirdly, The East Pacific will address this matter after our elections for Delegate are concluded and a new cabinet is in place. We will not hasten to "account" for actions most of us were unaware of, nor will be act without a clear understanding of the entire situation - that is reactionary diplomacy and not something we wish to do, so we hope that the South Pacific can understand and agree to give us some time to get our in house affairs in order, investigate how such a thing was able to happen and deal with it before addressing the matter on an external basis.

On a more personal note: The Osiris Fraternal Order's founding is unrelated to this thread and it has zero similarities to Lazarus, please do not compare the two regions in that regard, I may be retired from the region after a lengthy period of service but you could not insult me more than by comparing the two. Whatever reasons the PRL was formed, it came from an existing government, Osiris did not have an existing government. Osiris was in a state of near civil war for over six months and was in urgent need of a new way, the OFO was the new way and has for the most part being successful. I will be more than happy to discuss the founding of the Osiris Fraternal Order in another medium, another time.

[The Dourian Embassy]

Thanks for saying South Pacificans are incapable of electing their own leaders without foreign interference.

This is a gross oversimplification of the issue. I do believe the actions taken were inadvisable in how they were laid out (because it makes it look like something it isn't). But all the plan involved was closer relations between TEP and TSP and a watchful eye on Unibot and GR. Who are, by the way, working against your region's interests. What bothers me more now is that you apparently don't know that?

I would suggest that perhaps we actually believed Unibot would make a good Chair of the Assembly, but that is a crazy thought. Right?

...YES.

[Kazmr]

A year after we've proven that our community is far more active, engaging, and, hell, fun than it was when certain individuals were there for the express purpose of keeping the region inactive

A year after we've shown that we're a stable, legitimate player on the foreign stage

A year after we decided we looked great in red

Onder still thinks of nothing but us

It's okay buddy

It's because you care

<3 u 2 bro

[Zaolat]

This only strengthens their hands in TSP, and with any luck they'll hope to use this as a wedge to find new roads into TEP, or at worst use it as a cudgel against those folks they don't like over there. But as for the rest of us, I think we oughta treat this as what it is... some people in TEP were concerned about Unibot and GR's votestacking in TSP, and created a plan to counteract it with an expressly stated purpose of ensuring that those Uni's stackers wouldn't be able to wrest control of TSP from its natives.

Thanks for saying South Pacificans are incapable of electing their own leaders without foreign interference. I would suggest that perhaps we actually believed Unibot would make a good Chair of the Assembly, but that is a crazy thought. Right?

Check history Kringy! It's not your guy's fault some of you are ignorant of some history or had forgotten it, but it's your responsibility to be informed.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Check history Kringy! It's not your guy's fault some of you are ignorant of some history or had forgotten it, but it's your responsibility to be informed.

What does this even mean? Do you have access to information regarding elections that Kris -- a forum administrator and (by extension) election commissioner -- does not have?

[RiderSyl]

Check history Kringy! It's not your guy's fault some of you are ignorant of some history or had forgotten it, but it's your responsibility to be informed.

What does this even mean? Do you have access to information regarding elections that Kris -- a forum administrator and (by extension) election commissioner -- does not have?

Zao was clearly referring to Kris's statement about Unibot making a good Chair of the Assembly, not the statement of TSP elections.

Maybe you need to spend less time working on your vocabulary and more time on your reading comprehension.

[McMasterdonia]

What does this even mean? Do you have access to information regarding elections that Kris -- a forum administrator and (by extension) election commissioner -- does not have?

Zao was clearly referring to Kris's statement about Unibot making a good Chair of the Assembly, not the statement of TSP elections.

Maybe you need to spend less time working on your vocabulary and more time on your reading comprehension.

Whatever was meant by it, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Even if lots of people who are not in TSP do not think Unibot will do a good job as Chair of Assembly, this does not give them the right to enter the region or to attempt to undermine that regions government by bringing people in to destabilise elections. It is up to the native voters of TSP who serves in what role - should they consider past indiscretions of those they elect, I would say so. I am not however going to say that this means other regions or governments should support election destabilisation in some attempt to make their point about Unibot. The ends (if you accept them to be valid) do not justify the means.

I recall a time when the FRA had infiltrated Ainur, and there was a significant amount of drama surrounding that issue. There have been major issues surrounding allegations of vote stacking against Unibot and others before. For some reasons, those issues are considered to be far more significant by some players than what occurred between the East Pacific and the South Pacific. Either both are bad, or neither are. It is a simple as that as I see it. I am sure that I am not the only one who is seriously annoyed at the constant double standards that are applied in this game.

Finally - I think that Kringalia and his cabinet have handled this matter well and I commend them for it. It is important that we realise that in this situation, although some TEPers were involved in it, this action should not reflect badly on their region or community as a whole. The North Pacific is allied to both TSP (our oldest current ally) and TEP through treaty and we remain committed to the security of both.

[The Sapientia]

I don't care how serious this scandal/operation is... I just can't get over the name.
Which mastermind came up with that?

[Kringalia]

I don't care how serious this scandal/operation is... I just can't get over the name.
Which mastermind came up with that?

Operation Brave Toaster?

Those who wanted to challenge the sitting Delegate of the South Pacific would have to state their intent in the Brave Little Toaster section. I assume that's where the name came from.

@McMasterdonia: I couldn't have said it better. Thanks for saying exactly what some of us are thinking.

[Hobbesistan]

As for how this entire mess was possible? Todd McCloud is an Administrator on the The East Pacific forum, and has the authority to create forums without oversight from others and set permissions as he sees fit - this situation wasn't a "Who wants to coup The South Pacific because Uni/GR?" it was something that the vast majority of people were unaware of, including myself until this article was published.

I will say that as a Administrator on TEP's board I had no idea of the existence of this into I was told of it a few hours ago - I had to set myself a special group to even see the board, then enter a password.

[Ynys Prydain]

Furthermore, I also take exception to the way cormac has brought this up. If you had an issue with this at the time you should have told Belschaft that you did not believe in this and encourage him to not go down this path. Or even warned the authorities earlier.. or report it right away. Holding on to it to release later is a bit strange. So while I believe what was done was wrong, I think the motives by cormac are not as pure as portrayed.

I couldn't reveal this at the time without violating the TEP-Osiris treaty, which probably would have jeopardized the alliance. I wanted to, but I decided that I unfortunately had to prioritize looking after my own region over looking after The South Pacific -- and I apologize to TSP for that choice, but it was the only one I felt I could make at the time.

I led Bel to believe I was on board with this so that I could continue receiving information. For example, if he had decided not simply to take the Delegacy by deceit and vote stacking but by using his high endo, high influence nation on the CSS, I wanted to know that.

In any event, after I left office I started thinking about this again and realized that as I'm no longer a citizen of Osiris, Osiris can't be held accountable for my actions as there's nothing they can realistically do to stop me anymore. Once I saw that three of the people involved in this were running for Delegate of The East Pacific in this election, and knowing that TSP's election was also coming up soon, I decided it wouldn't be prudent to sit quietly any longer.

I sat quietly about a coup plot for a long time once before, and in the end by the time I revealed that plot it was too late and Feux got away with purging some Lazarene citizens and establishing a radical, authoritarian regime in Lazarus. I didn't want the same thing to happen in TSP, despite my differences with their community, so I spoke up now.

[Lord Kevan Stark]

On a more personal note: The Osiris Fraternal Order's founding is unrelated to this thread and it has zero similarities to Lazarus, please do not compare the two regions in that regard.

Indeed, one involved democratically elected delegate using his constitutional powers to remove undesirables with support of the remaining legislature, resigning from office and his democratically elected successor changing constitution and regional theme with support of the remaining citizens.

The other involved the inheritor of the delegacy promising elections, then a week before they were scheduled to begin take control of the region in name of a foreign raider organisation, flying the flag of said organisation on the region, being propped up by foreign, mostly raider and imperialist forces and having a WFE that read like a raid report, under the guise of removing undesirables, while at the same time letting in formed PNGs that participated in previous coups of the region. Then afterwards creating a new forum and and a new government.

I agree, not the same thing at all.

[McMasterdonia]

On a more personal note: The Osiris Fraternal Order's founding is unrelated to this thread and it has zero similarities to Lazarus, please do not compare the two regions in that regard.

<snip>

How on earth was that comment necessary? Obviously you're protective of whatever region you're calling your home today, but did this thread need to be a Lazarus v Osiris thread any more than it already was? For goodness sake, the article is about TEP and the South Pacific.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

<snip>

How on earth was that comment necessary? Obviously you're protective of whatever region you're calling your home today, but did this thread need to be a Lazarus v Osiris thread any more than it already was? For goodness sake, the article is about TEP and the South Pacific.

Unfortunately, TEP and TSP have been declared irrelevant, and thus legally dead, and their worldly possessions (including this thread) have been inherited by Osiris and Lazarus. We're doing this in their honor, McM. :|

[Kazmr]

I'm sure most Lazarenes would kindly decline that honor Avakael We're not the ones who bring our region up whenever any news anywhere happens... That distinction goes to a certain individual who just loves to beat us all into submission with copious amounts of texts!

[Onderkelkia]

I'm sure most Lazarenes would kindly decline that honor Avakael We're not the ones who bring our region up whenever any news anywhere happens... That distinction goes to a certain individual who just loves to beat us all into submission with copious amounts of texts!

You will find that the issue of Lazarus was raised in this thread sometime prior to my first post on this matter. Lazarus was first raised in this thread in post by Evil Wolf, which was followed by further posts mentioning Lazarus involving Glen-Rhodes, Evil Lord Sauron, Cormac and Solorni.

All that occurred prior to my intervention - the purpose of which was to narrow down the comparison to Lazarus to the log which Cormac revealed in September 2013 showing Feux suggesting he would perform a coup of Lazarus if Griffin won an election and, in response to a question from AMOM, saying he'd rigged the Lazarus elections. Whereas Unibot responded to those conversations by alleging them to be trivial on the grounds that (at the time when he wrote) Feux had not carried out a coup and Feux was merely expressing his frustrations with differently minded individuals in Lazarus, his reaction to these logs (showing less serious malpractice than threatening a outright coup), where the same defences he cited for Feux apply, has been rather different.

Moreover, even before Evil Wolf's post, it was Karputsk who raised the question of how people would react 'If this was the other way round,' so it was perfectly reasonable to discuss precisely how some of the people expressing outrage regarding this incident did react in relation to the Lazarus incident. So at the end of the day it was a member of the FRA who invited the drawing of comparisons between this case and others, which inevitably came to Lazarus.

So no, I did not bring Lazarus up. It became a topic of discussion without my involvement. I merely dealt with the issues it raised in this context - the similarities and difference between the logs which Cormac revealed on each occasion, and the reactions of different people to them, is entirely relevant.

The comparison with Lazarus does not invalidate concerns over this incident (which I said from the start) and, as Todd McCloud has admitted, the conduct involved in this matter was inadvisable (albeit less serious and much less consequential than what occurred in Lazarus), but as people were disputing the comparison with Lazarus made by Evil Wolf, it was perfectly reasonable to both illustrate that comparison and show the hypocrisy of certain individuals.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Only Onder would need 5 paragraphs to explain how he wasn't the first to bring up Lazarus

[Aperi]

I always found it odd when *other regions* try to tell *us* how we should run our region. So many pronouns I know.

[Solorni]

I always found it odd when *other regions* try to tell *us* how we should run our region. So many pronouns I know.

When people tell the NPO how to run their region? Or when the NPO tells Lazarus how to run their region?

[Darkesia]

When I was 10 I got in a fist fight with my 8 year old sister. In the middle of the fight both of us suddenly started giggling and stopped swinging because we couldn't remember what we were fighting about.

I feel similarly reading this thread.

[Unibot III]

When I was 10 I got in a fist fight with my 8 year old sister. In the middle of the fight both of us suddenly started giggling and stopped swinging because we couldn't remember what we were fighting about.

I feel similarly reading this thread.

If Onder starts giggling, I'd eat my hat.

[Yao]

When I was 10 I got in a fist fight with my 8 year old sister. In the middle of the fight both of us suddenly started giggling and stopped swinging because we couldn't remember what we were fighting about.

I feel similarly reading this thread.

If Onder starts giggling, I'd eat my hat.

Onder wouldn't start giggling unless that hat was made of hemlock. Maybe.