Embassy of the South Pacific

[Lord Ravenclaw]

I'm afraid that I have to be that guy and remind you Hileville that only the Assembly of the Coalition of the South Pacific is empowered to dissolve its own governing documents/The Charter.

The Delegate does not have that authority, nor does the Cabinet anymore than I do in The North Pacific. Saying something does not unfortunately make it true.

[Canton Empire]

Well, let's see how long this coup lasts

[Consular]

Kris,

I think you forgot to point out that under the Charter (that has been dissolved), the CSS has no authority to declare a State of Emergency unless requested by the Delegate (me). It should also be noted that I am still the Delegate of the Coalition Government, unless the CSS has also empowered the Vice Delegate (Imki) to act as Delegate per Article 6, Section 3, Clause 6. I can also confirm that Imki has not asked for a State of Emergency. I have not been recalled form office, I have not been convicted of any crimes, and I have not lost my Citizenship according to the Charter (again that is now dissolved).

The CSS has no legal authority whatsoever per your laws.

The Official Regional Forums of the South Pacific reside at http://thesouthpacific.org where a Constitutional Convention is taking place.

Thanks!

Except the charter is not dissolved. You said it was, and keep saying so, but you don't have the authority to dissolve the document. You can say you aren't following it anymore (which is obvious from your actions anyway), but you can't legally dissolve it. Though I can understand you're going to keep saying otherwise, because it sounds all legal and gives your blatant coup a slight shimmer of legality when it has none whatsoever.

I like how you're trying to play the charter's technicalities to your advantage though, despite not following it yourself.

[Valrifell]

I'm afraid that I have to be that guy and remind you Hileville that only the Assembly of the Coalition of the South Pacific is empowered to dissolve its own governing documents/The Charter.

The Delegate does not have that authority, nor does the Cabinet anymore than I do in The North Pacific. Saying something does not unfortunately make it true.

It's almost as if, whoa, he's like, couping the place or something! Weird!

[SouthMac]

Today a majority of the Committee voted to declare a state of emergency, due to the rogue actions of the Cabinet. We will be contemplating further measures in addition to the state of emergency in the course of the follow days, many of which will be submitted to the Assembly for due approval. Business will continue as usual in our official forum, which is now located at http://tspforums.xyz.

Let me explain all the ways this is illegal under the Coalition's own Charter:

1. The meeting of the CSS was illegal, as Article 6, Section 1.2 makes clear that the Vice Delegate, who has not been recalled, serves as Chair of the CSS, and the Delegate, who has also not been recalled, serves as an observer on the CSS (Article 6, Section 1.3).

2. The CSS membership of most of the individuals still declaring themselves "CSS members" is probably nullified, in that they do not have World Assembly nations in The South Pacific (Article 6, Section 1.1).

3. The state of emergency is illegal. A state of emergency may only be declared by the Delegate with the approval of the CSS (Article 5, Section 2.6), or by the outgoing and incoming Delegates during transitions with the approval of the CSS (Article 6, Section 3.5). The CSS is only "empowered to grant the Vice-Delegate temporary provisions as Acting Delegate" (Article 6, Section 3.6) in the event of a "a hostile takeover of the region by the sitting Delegate." There are no provisions for if the Vice Delegate has joined the Delegate in this endeavor.

Overall, an excellent start for the people who are claiming to be working to uphold the rule of law under the Coalition and its Charter. Literally none of your actions thus far have been legal under your own laws, which sort of takes the wind out of the sails with the argument that Hileville is breaking the law. Now you are as well.

Additionally, good luck moving legislation -- including recalls -- through the Assembly without the cooperation of the elected Chair of the Assembly, who is the only one empowered by the Charter to move anything through the Assembly (Article 3, Section 1.10, 2.1). Due to the Charter's provisions, the Coalition is effectively legally barred from acting until the term of the Cabinet officers expires and new elections can be conducted.

This state of affairs, in which the Coalition is legally crippled from acting in its own defense, is among the reasons that reasonable people are supporting drastic action to dissolve the Coalition and working toward a governing document that actually works. You folks, on the other hand, are the ones insisting on restoring a governing document that is basically doing everything it can to prevent being legally restored. How odd. In any case, that you will have no choice but to resort to illegal actions to restore the Coalition only bolsters the case for its dissolution, so thank you for that.

[Zadiner]

Basically everything done in the region in the past week has been illegal, so I don't understand why we can't wave our magic wands and do 'illegal' stuff as well.

[SouthMac]

Basically everything done in the region in the past week has been illegal, so I don't understand why we can't wave our magic wands and do 'illegal' stuff as well.

Because you are the ones claiming to cherish the rule of law under the Coalition and its Charter. You absolutely can illegally pursue your objectives, but it only undermines your claims and strengthens the claims that the Coalition and its Charter are so dysfunctional that drastic action is required. Even your side will have to take drastically illegal action that contravenes and contradicts the Charter, because that's just how dysfunctional the Charter is. Why keep it?

[RiderSyl]

I don't officially support the coup, but boy do I support the choice of ejectees!

What did Farengeto do to offend you?

I wasn't responding to Farengeto's ejection. If you'd have read the comment chain, you would've seen that.

[The Brotherhood of the Sword]

I think I probably speak for the majority of TSP when I say this to both sides; please take your crap off the RMB and fight on your forums/IRC/skype/discord whatever. You all use them, and the RMB is the only place in TSP where I've managed to avoid this fighting the last couple of days. Stop trying to get everyone else involved in your nonsense.

[Ikania]

TSP Coup II: Here We Go Again!

[Consular]

From a brief read of your charter, Cormac actually seems to be correct, as much as it irritates me that him and Hile are rules lawyering in some perverse attempt to de legitimise the legitimate authorities. Who wrote the Charter of TSP and why is it such a self crippling mess?

[Hileville]

From a brief read of your charter, Cormac actually seems to be correct, as much as it irritates me that him and Hile are rules lawyering in some perverse attempt to de legitimise the legitimate authorities. Who wrote the Charter of TSP and why is it such a self crippling mess?

The Charter was originally written long ago. It has been changed many times. Over the past 2ish years we have had GR, Unibot, and Kris that have heavily influenced the mess that it became.

[Todd McCloud]

Speaking as a player and not as a delegate, I think it is prudent that both sides come together and reach some kind of compromise. I think both sides can agree that the current (or removed as is the case of one side) laws are broken and have been changed to the point where it's hard to even rule on how they apply to any given situation. Case in point the forum move with the argument of what the law stated versus what the law intended to say.

But if both sides don't come together, this'll prolly be a long, drawn out war. It reminds me of the OFO, to a point, because that group also changed the region drastically. But, unlike the OFO, both sides have quite a bit of support. There's no telling what could happen, especially as both sides will most likely try to conduct delegate elections. The fight for the region will be on.

There is also some ill sentiments from nations caught in the middle, it seems. A third faction could actually arise from this, based on that observation alone.

If it were me, I would say the following should happen in order to make an adequate compromise:

1. New laws are deliberated over. All former and current citizens under the past set of laws should be allowed to input on these laws. Anyone who wishes to add input may do so (like if someone is from TNP, let's pretend, but happens to enjoy this kind of law creation stuff), provided they agree to become a citizen. Citizens will vote for whatever they like the best.
2. The following folks should be allowed to add input: Farengeto, Kris Kringle, Glenn, and Belschaft. Those four should be pardoned and clean slates should be granted.
3. Because the admin team was a point of contention, and because both sides seem to like Tsu, Tsu should be the administrator for the time being and the forums should return to the "old" forums. A member of the "new" forums should be added to the team as well.
4. A third admin, someone who puts TSP first and has been there for a while, should be added later. Someone who is trustworthy who won't be accused of having an agenda or being manipulated.
5. After the laws are created, assembly (or citizens) vote to either move the forums or stay put.

I've been over at TSP for a while now, but I haven't really been involved over there in a while. After reading both sides and the comments from the main groups, however, I think that'd be a pretty fair way to go about it.

[Unibot III]

From a brief read of your charter, Cormac actually seems to be correct, as much as it irritates me that him and Hile are rules lawyering in some perverse attempt to de legitimise the legitimate authorities. Who wrote the Charter of TSP and why is it such a self crippling mess?

He's right only insofar as the constitution never anticipated both the delegate and the vice delegate being rogue - because in past conflicts, it was only ever the delegate that had gone rogue. I suspect that what the CSS means is the State of Emergancy is being done in anticipation of something greater; for example if the Assembly recalls both the delegate and the vice delegate, the CSS has to assume control during the transition. But a recall takes five days according to the constitution - that much is mandated in the charter.

However it goes without saying that one side has tried to unilaterally dismiss the constitution in its entirety - and that side ain't the CSS.

[Icecream Princess]

He's right only insofar as the constitution never anticipated both the delegate and the vice delegate being rogue - because in past conflicts, it was only ever the delegate that had gone rogue.

This is pretty terrible logic in my opinion

There is also some ill sentiments from nations caught in the middle, it seems. A third faction could actually arise from this, based on that observation alone.

Highly unlikely without a major gameplayer imo.

[*] The following folks should be allowed to add input: Farengeto, Kris Kringle, Glenn, and Belschaft. Those four should be pardoned and clean slates should be granted.

Yes, I'm sure it makes sense for Hile to add three major enemies and one major ally. This is Soviet level math

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

There is also some ill sentiments from nations caught in the middle, it seems. A third faction could actually arise from this, based on that observation alone.

Highly unlikely without a major gameplayer imo.

Pick One:

[Unibot III]

He's right only insofar as the constitution never anticipated both the delegate and the vice delegate being rogue - because in past conflicts, it was only ever the delegate that had gone rogue.

This is pretty terrible logic in my opinion

It's slightly embarrassing. I didn't write it. But at the same time: 20/20 = perfect hindsight. A rogue delegate + rogue vice delegate is a new one for TSP - which in hindsight is kind of surprising given the Delegate is elected on a joint ticket with the Vice Delegate - so really it kind of makes sense the two would go rogue together, but it's never happened before because the CSS and an elected VD were created in light of Milograd or at the very least around then (I'm vaguer on the details because I had left NS when Milo couped and the third Great Council was called - there also seems to be something called a "TSP Security Council" which existed been Jan-April 2013.) Prior to electing Vice Delegates, they were appointed and approved by the Assembly. Honestly I wouldn't blame the poor law on me (who wasn't around then) but rather on the guys who likely wrote the Great Council amendments: Hileville, Belschaft, perhaps even Milograd. *shrugs*

[Ambroscus Koth]

This is pretty terrible logic in my opinion

It's slightly embarrassing. I didn't write it. But at the same time: 20/20 = perfect hindsight. A rogue delegate + rogue vice delegate is a new one for TSP - which is hindsight is kind of surprising given the Delegate is elected on a joint ticket with the Vice Delegate - so really it kind of makes sense the two would rogue together, but it's never happened before because the CSS and an elected VD were created in light of Milograd or at the very least around then (I'm vaguer on the details because I had left NS when Milo couped and the third Great Council was called - there also seems to be something called a "TSP Security Council" which existed been Jan-April 2013.) Prior to electing Vice Delegates, they were appointed and approved by the Assembly. Honestly I'd blame the poor law not on me (who wasn't around then) but on the guys who likely wrote the Great Council amendments: Hileville, Belschaft, perhaps even Milograd. *shrugs*

I don't think anyone was blaming the old laws solely on you, Unibot. Pretty much none of this is about you.

[Loftegen]

Statement of the Government of the Humane Republic of Lazarus

In light of recent events in The South Pacific, the Humane Republic of Lazarus declares that it finds the sitting cabinet illegitimate.

The illegal dissolution of the constitution, among other offenses, are tantamount to a coup, and thus the provisions of our treaty with The South Pacific are void.

We urge the delegate and his cabinet to stand down and restore the constitution and unban those citizens of The South Pacific who were illegally expelled from the region.

We encourage our friends and other regions to join us in our condemnation.

[Zadiner]

^Thank you. Some common sense in this thread.

[Icecream Princess]

Surprise surprise that the two inactive and defender sinkers have backed the manipulative defender forces in TSP. Once again, the idea that Lazarus which was established via illegitimate coups can claim some sort of moral high ground is strange. Furthermore, Lazarus still has not to the best of my knowledge apologized for banning members of its region. This makes it highly ironic for Lazarus to comment negatively on "illegal" or "banning people" particularly when Lazarus had banned more people in the PRL coup. To which again, it has not yet apologized for.

[Glen-Rhodes]

It shouldn't be a surprise that our allies are supporting the legitimate Coalition over Hileville's coup. Those alliances were fought for and hard won, against those who now support that coup, and the Coalition is grateful that Lazarus and TRR are both sticking with us, even if it seems like we're up against steep odds.

TSP Coup II: Here We Go Again!

You're forgetting at least one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tsunamy]

As friends, allies and enemies know, The South Pacific has recently been undergoing a bit of turmoil. It's with a heavy heart that I see this happening in the region I've called home for nearly all of my time in NationStates.

At the present, the elected Cabinet has taken it upon themselves to dissolve the Charter -- the set of laws the community in TSP has voted on and followed for the better part of 13 years. Instead they have opted for a "Constitutional Convention" to replace it. However, they don't have the power to dissolve the Charter.

I've taken time to come out with a statement because I've wanted to give the Cabinet the benefit of the doubt. Hileville has been a trusted member of the community for years. Imkitopia has provided great experience and energy even though she has only been in office a short time. And the rest of the Cabinet -- people I have worked closely with in the past and consider friends -- have worked to make TSP a better place.

However, I've done all I could to work with Hileville. At every turn I've felt betrayed to the point that I fear this Constitution Convention is simply a ruse to usurp power.

Instead of coming to me with initial complaints about how the forum was being run, Hileville and the Cabinet instead moved forums rather than dealing with me. To be clear, this action circumvented a long-time administrator and former delegate to establish new forums outside of the legal mechanisms.

At the time, no less than four members of the Cabinet apologized for their actions and the fact that I was caught up in this mix.

I was offered to be an administrator of the new forums when things calmed down. Trusting that things could be worked out, I joined the forums and provided contributions to productive legislation. However, once the High Court ruled against the forum move, nothing changed.

In fact, Hileville and I were trying to negotiate a compromise Saturday. I had offered ways to address their concerns with the official forums or -- if that couldn't be solved -- to move to the forums the Cabinet set up. I asked Hile to get feedback from the Cabinet, so we could chat more the following day. I was making every effort to find a solution that past and -- more importantly -- future generations of TSPers could live with.

Instead of working openly with me, that night Hileville and the Cabinet decided to eject Sandaoguo, Kringalia and Farengeto.

Since then, I've talked to Hileville and he has once again expressed interest in having me join the administration team and helping with the Constitutional Convention. However, as I openly told Hileville, I feel taken advantage of and would like some semblance that this isn't a ruse to keep me quiet.

Instead, Hileville provided proof, unprompted, he could banject me, if he pleased. However, I refuse to bow to his intimidation.

Make no mistake, any illusions I had about a compromise have been shattered. I believe this is only the beginning.

If Hileville is allowed to follow through with this, lawlessness will prevail and intimidation will be the norm. The South Pacific those of us have built over the past 13 years will be no more.

I ask for the help of The South Pacific nations and the help of the entire NationStates community to right this wrong.

The South Pacific deserves better than underhanded dealings and fear tactics.

[RiderSyl]

The bold means it's important.

[Kazmr]

If anyone has kept a level head through all of this, its you Tsu. Much respect for all of the work you've done up until to try and find a compromise. Quite a shame that Hile, in his lust for control, simply doesn't feel the same way.