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Embassy of the South Pacific

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Cormac Stark
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Posts: 1417
Founded: Apr 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormac Stark » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:05 am

Unibot III wrote:I can't think of another case in a GCR where a governing caucus has operated so outside of their region's presiding constitutional law and also maintains itself as the legitimate executors of the same constitution - generally when executives are acting this much outside of the law they're trying to establish a new regional order altogether (NLO, OFO, SPSR). This puts Hileville's cabinet in an unprecedentedly grey area if they try to deescalate the legal crisis and/or oversee an awkward forum transition - in other words, most people are on their way to becoming regional pariahs/revolutionaries at this point, not bidding for re-election.

And you would love this, because every person who isn't in league with Glen-Rhodes' (and your) agenda who leaves or is exiled from TSP is another person not standing in the way of that agenda. The number of people you, Glen-Rhodes, Kringalia, et al. have chased out of TSP in pursuit of your radical agenda is shocking, and includes people like Brutland and Norden, Southern Bellz, Belschaft, several more veteran TSPers, and who even knows how many unnoticed residents and citizens who just got tired of all the crap. I'm sure you're salivating at the prospect of adding Hileville, Sopo, et al. to the list.

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Glen-Rhodes
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Ex-Nation

Re: Embassy of the South Pacific

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:14 am

Southern Bellz wasn't "chased off" by anybody. He left NS because he didn't have time for it: http://104.131.34.7/thread-2979.html

But whatever fits your narrative, I guess...


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Consular
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:24 am

Are you actually spinning Belschaft as a victim here? He tried to systematically undermine the democracy of TSP by importing foreign voters, in a plot that was rather suspiciously close to TEP's government.

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Falapatorius
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Founded: Sep 28, 2013
Anarchy

Postby Falapatorius » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:36 am

Consular wrote:systematically undermine the democracy of TSP by importing foreign voters
yeah.. that's unheard of. :roll:

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Cormac Stark
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Postby Cormac Stark » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:53 am

Consular wrote:Are you actually spinning Belschaft as a victim here? He tried to systematically undermine the democracy of TSP by importing foreign voters, in a plot that was rather suspiciously close to TEP's government.

Belschaft is no worse than Glen-Rhodes, who has admitted on this forum that he has been pursuing a defender political agenda in TSP all along. Glen-Rhodes, Unibot, and their faction, using Belschaft's plot as their justification, for quite some time did anything they could to demonize and exclude from citizenship anyone who might oppose their agenda. They did ridiculous things like suggest that political opponents such as Wolf were in league with Belschaft and his co-conspirators, or even that they were secret members of Empire. This was essentially Belschaft's plan in reverse: Rather than recruiting in order to win votes in the Assembly and elections, as Belschaft had plotted, they shunned and excluded opponents or potential opponents in order to win. And that doesn't preclude the possibility that they were also vote stacking and just were never caught.

For months the citizenship process in TSP looked like a parody of The Crucible -- "I saw Goody Wolf cavorting with the Empire and summoning Belschaft!" -- and that witch hunt was driven by Glen-Rhodes, Unibot, and their faction. Anything Belschaft planned to do was certainly no worse, and what they did was arguably much more destructive than anything Belschaft planned, and inarguably more destructive than anything he actually did, in that he never executed his plan before it was exposed.

So yes, insofar as the treatment of Belschaft was disproportionately harsh compared to those who engaged in similarly subversive behavior, he was treated unfairly. And not only that, he and his actions were manipulated to unfairly attack and exclude others who had nothing to do with him or his plot. That doesn't mean what he did was okay, but it does mean what Glen-Rhodes and Unibot have done is just as bad and should be treated as such.
Last edited by Cormac Stark on Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:08 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Consular
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:32 am

Falapatorius wrote:
Consular wrote:systematically undermine the democracy of TSP by importing foreign voters
yeah.. that's unheard of. :roll:

Doesn't make it any less unethical.

Cormac Stark wrote:-snip-

Your defence of his conduct is all the more amusing considering it was you who exposed his and TEP's devious little plan.

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Todd McCloud
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Founded: Oct 11, 2006
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Postby Todd McCloud » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:24 am

Consular wrote:Are you actually spinning Belschaft as a victim here? He tried to systematically undermine the democracy of TSP by importing foreign voters, in a plot that was rather suspiciously close to TEP's government.

Tried is such a strong word. Tried implies that he acted on it. Thought would be more correct here. And really, who doesn't think about getting friends into your region and into the government once?
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Todd McCloud
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Postby Todd McCloud » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:35 am

Unibot III wrote:
Ridersyl wrote:I see you're not mentioning that the 'presiding justice' who ruled against Hilevile and the cabinet was directly negatively affected by their actions.

I guess bias doesn't matter if you're a judge in the South Pacific! :lol:


Farengeto was not a forum administrator nor is he Kringalia, the CSS member that the third part of the reference question centered around. The third decision did not change the parameters of CSS membership but instead revolved around citizenship law (i.e., whether Kringalia was still a citizen), so in effect it didn't affect CSS members as far as their membership in general is concerned anymore than the decision affected any other citizen in virtue of them being citizens. "Conflict of interests" is not a reasonable counter-argument here: the cabinet's actions were always on shaky legal grounds - and I'd wager a bet anyone with any strong understanding of TSP's law and some integrity would have made a similar ruling as Farengeto did.

I helped write a lot of those laws before they were goobered up and made into a lengthy bureaucratic set of regulations. Article 9, section 1 clearly states that "The Coalition's official Regional Forum is located at http://www.thesouthpacific.org . That hasn't changed. The look and provider has, but everything else is legal under that precedent.
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Kazmr
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Founded: Aug 23, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kazmr » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:06 am

What 'precedent' are you talking about when the court has already ruled it was illegal? Given that the high court in TSP is the ultimate interpreter of the Charter, it seems the issue has already been settled.

I personally find it hilarious that the semi-official motto of this forum move is literally "This is not a coup". Like, those words are on the WFE, stamped on the profile pics of a new administratoe, and Hile has made several posts responding to people saying nothing more than those five words. It almost feels deliberately ironic :P
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Xoriet
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Xoriet » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:29 am

Consular wrote:Are you actually spinning Belschaft as a victim here? He tried to systematically undermine the democracy of TSP by importing foreign voters, in a plot that was rather suspiciously close to TEP's government.

It had nothing to do with TEP's government, and I should think everyone with a shred of maturity is past that blatant display of consummate foolishness. That was 2014 for God's sake. Everyone already received their just rewards for playing around with the idea. And again, I reiterate, TEP's collective government was as dismayed about the whole thing as anyone else, particularly since it could easily have implicated TEP's participation as a region. Well, we didn't. Most of us wanted nothing to do with TSP. Being dragged into nonsense approaching two years old now is quite unwelcome.

I'm sure TEP's government would greatly appreciate you not involving us in this issue. :)
Last edited by Xoriet on Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Todd McCloud
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Postby Todd McCloud » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:33 am

Kazmr wrote:What 'precedent' are you talking about when the court has already ruled it was illegal? Given that the high court in TSP is the ultimate interpreter of the Charter, it seems the issue has already been settled.

I personally find it hilarious that the semi-official motto of this forum move is literally "This is not a coup". Like, those words are on the WFE, stamped on the profile pics of a new administratoe, and Hile has made several posts responding to people saying nothing more than those five words. It almost feels deliberately ironic :P

You mean like "lol k"?

In all seriousness, I think they might have a vote on it. I mean, really, this could be divided into several votes, but it really depends on how the citizens want to approach things.
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Ramaeus
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Postby Ramaeus » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:35 am

Consular wrote:Your defence of his conduct is all the more amusing considering it was you who exposed his and TEP's devious little plan.

We all make mistakes. Something you should be extremely familiar with, considering you were sleeping at the switch during the Nazi Europe raid.
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Kazmr
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Founded: Aug 23, 2013
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Postby Kazmr » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:53 am

Todd McCloud wrote:
Kazmr wrote:What 'precedent' are you talking about when the court has already ruled it was illegal? Given that the high court in TSP is the ultimate interpreter of the Charter, it seems the issue has already been settled.

I personally find it hilarious that the semi-official motto of this forum move is literally "This is not a coup". Like, those words are on the WFE, stamped on the profile pics of a new administratoe, and Hile has made several posts responding to people saying nothing more than those five words. It almost feels deliberately ironic :P

You mean like "lol k"?

In all seriousness, I think they might have a vote on it. I mean, really, this could be divided into several votes, but it really depends on how the citizens want to approach things.

You mean like they should have done in the first place? Like what you do when something, well, isnt a coup?
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Railana
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Ex-Nation

Postby Railana » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:04 am

I'd like to hear from Hileville what he plans to do now that the High Court has ruled that his actions were illegal. Will he restore the old forums?
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Todd McCloud
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Postby Todd McCloud » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:08 am

Kazmr wrote:You mean like they should have done in the first place? Like what you do when something, well, isnt a coup?

How is it a coup? They were elected democratically and have kept the forums at the particular address as issued on the Charter. No other surprises have been sprung on the region by this group. There are some changes being discussed on the forums and for the most part the government appears to be operating normally. The previous several forum changes were not voted on by the assembly if I remember correctly, but I could be wrong.
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Belschaft
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Founded: Mar 19, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Belschaft » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:29 am

Oh my, people are talking about me? This must be what relevance feels like....

I believe that the events of the last year, especially Glen-Rhode's admittance of his intentional subversion of TSP's foreign relations with TNI and Europeia and the ever increasing problems with the behaviour of him and Kris as admins, more than prove the concerns I had in 2014 and validate, if not justify, me considering launching an intelligence operation to try and deal with Glen and Unibot. Had TSP been willing to listen to my warnings and take them seriously it would never have found itself in this position, and former Delegates like Southern Bellz and Brutland and Norden would not have been forced out of TSP. I'm well aware that I crossed a line by planning an intelligence operation without the knowledge or consent of the Cabinet of the time, but that Cabinet was horribly compromised and I was in the difficult position of a counter-intelligence officer who was dealing with an elected government which was willing to ignore security threats because they found them personally likeable. I was by no means alone in identifying that TSP had been compromised, and was not the only CSS member who felt that action may have become necessary. I do not regret what I did, and continue to believe that I was right to develop plans to counter the political infiltration and subversion of TSP; I regret only my failure, and that the problem became more acute as Glen and Kris used me as an excuse to exclude or force out those who opposed them.
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Glen-Rhodes
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Embassy of the South Pacific

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:48 am

I'm not really seeing the equivalence between me, a vocal pro-defender and anti-imperialist, advocating a pro-defender and anti-imperialist agenda as an elected politician, and winning elections on it!-- and Belschaft, a waning political figure who did not win those elections against me, deciding to conspire on a foreign region's forums to manipulate and subvert the democratic process for the sole purpose of purging two players he didn't like.

Also, again, Southern Bellz wasn't "forced out" by anybody. Do you guys just not read? Ignore everything that doesn't support your narrative? SB left NS because he didn't have time for it. He made a very public post about it, which I linked in my last post.

Also x2, TSP has no intelligence program. There are no such things as counter-intelligence officers.


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Last edited by Glen-Rhodes on Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:35 am

Todd McCloud wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
Farengeto was not a forum administrator nor is he Kringalia, the CSS member that the third part of the reference question centered around. The third decision did not change the parameters of CSS membership but instead revolved around citizenship law (i.e., whether Kringalia was still a citizen), so in effect it didn't affect CSS members as far as their membership in general is concerned anymore than the decision affected any other citizen in virtue of them being citizens. "Conflict of interests" is not a reasonable counter-argument here: the cabinet's actions were always on shaky legal grounds - and I'd wager a bet anyone with any strong understanding of TSP's law and some integrity would have made a similar ruling as Farengeto did.

I helped write a lot of those laws before they were goobered up and made into a lengthy bureaucratic set of regulations. Article 9, section 1 clearly states that "The Coalition's official Regional Forum is located at http://www.thesouthpacific.org . That hasn't changed. The look and provider has, but everything else is legal under that precedent.


Trail your eyes two clauses below that clause: "[...] the Assembly reserves the sole right to authorize the creation of a new Regional Forum" (9.3). You can't create a new forum without the Assembly authorizing its creation - simply applying the same redirection to a new forum does not satisfy that clause. It's not a "bureaucratic" regulation, it's the last defense against executive abuse - it asserts that changing forums has to be a community decision not the decision of the delegate (- who in theory can change the WFE at any time.)

No TSP forum before Hileville's has been accepted as official before the Assembly has voted to move to it. Not only have all of the forum moves been voted on, the moves between servers were voted on too (since 2013's updates to the Charter.) It's always been practice to consult the Assembly and more recently, it's been the law.
Last edited by Unibot III on Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hileville
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Postby Hileville » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:40 am

That isn't true. the move to IPB wasn't voted on. The move to the second zetaboards forum wasn't voted on till after the fact the first one became available again. Then the vote was on whether to go back not should we stay.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 am

Hileville wrote:That isn't true. the move to IPB wasn't voted on. The move to the second zetaboards forum wasn't voted on till after the fact the first one became available again. Then the vote was on whether to go back not should we stay.


I never said that no forum had been moved to before a vote - I said "No TSP forum before Hileville's has been accepted as official before the Assembly has voted to move to it". I remembered the IPB crisis.

Three things though are significant to remember about the IPB crisis: (1) the Zeta forum was actually unavailable, (2) you still felt the need to vote on the move in the Assembly, (3) soon after the move, the procedure for forum transitions would be added to the constitution to clarify how these moves were supposed to be done.
Last edited by Unibot III on Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Kringalia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Kringalia » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:47 am

Todd McCloud wrote:The previous several forum changes were not voted on by the assembly if I remember correctly, but I could be wrong.

That is partially true, but you need to take the context of each individual change into account:

  • We have no record of the very first Charter, so it is entirely possible that the forum address was not constitutionally mandated back in 2003. In any case, there is no evidence that the Assembly ever voted on a change from the Killer Monkeys Forum to the InvisionFree Forum, aside from broad agreement with Tsunamy creating it. It is also worth noting that by that time Killer Monkeys had left NationStates, so there was no easy way of maintaining his forum.
  • The Assembly did vote on 13 October 2011 to convert from InvisionFree to ZetaBoards and the motion passed 8-2. However, conversion issues and extended downtimes forced Southern Bellz to create the ZetaBoards Forum on 20 March 2012. That same day a vote was held to decide whether to continue on the InvisionFree Forum or move to the ZetaBoards Forum, with voting available both on the former and the latter, though that vote ultimately failed. Another vote was taken on 28 April 2012, this time exclusively on the ZetaBoards Forum but still advertised on the InvisionFree Forum, and it did pass 14-6.
  • I am not sure if there was a vote about the merger and switch to IP.Board on 25 February 2013, but then I am not entirely sure of the technical details involved, and whether the law at the time required a vote for such moves. In any case, there was a subforum dedicated to addressing any technical concerns about the merger, and all users in the ZetaBoards forum received an email reminding them to change their passwords when signing in for the first time on the merged forum.
  • The Assembly last voted on a full forum move on 16 April 2014, following several days of discussion on the then-unofficial x10 Forum. Such discussion had begun while the IP.Board Forum was still active, but no vote could take place because the owner unexpectedly took down the Forum around the end of March. This particular case is the reason the Assembly also added the Permanent Unavailability Clause to the Charter, which authorised the Cabinet to establish an emergency forum is the official one was permanently inaccessible.
  • The Assembly also voted on 3 December 2015 on an amendment to move away from the x10 host and alter the URL from http://thesouthpacific.x10.mx/ to http://thesouthpacific.org/, with the explicit provision that this new server would be owned by Tsunamy and maintained by Sandaoguo. This amendment unanimously passed 16-0.
I don't really have a point with all this. I just figured this was the Embassy of the South Pacific, so we might all learn a bit more about regional history. I really find it fascinating. :)
Last edited by Kringalia on Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Hileville
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Founded: May 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Hileville » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:50 am

Unibot III wrote:
Hileville wrote:That isn't true. the move to IPB wasn't voted on. The move to the second zetaboards forum wasn't voted on till after the fact the first one became available again. Then the vote was on whether to go back not should we stay.


I never said that no forum had been moved to before a vote - I said "No TSP forum before Hileville's has been accepted as official before the Assembly has voted to move to it". I remembered the IPB crisis.

Three things though are significant to remember about the IPB crisis: (1) the Zeta forum was actually unavailable, (2) you still felt the need to vote on the move in the Assembly, (3) soon after the move, the procedure for forum transitions would be added to the constitution to clarify how these moves were supposed to be done.



You are wrong yet again. The w11 zetaboards forum was not unavailable. SB, Milo, Bel, and myself decided to move to IPB. We had a very brief discussion on it and then moved. It was never voted on. After that move we added the clauses into the Charter for where the official forum is hosted.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:57 am

Hileville wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
I never said that no forum had been moved to before a vote - I said "No TSP forum before Hileville's has been accepted as official before the Assembly has voted to move to it". I remembered the IPB crisis.

Three things though are significant to remember about the IPB crisis: (1) the Zeta forum was actually unavailable, (2) you still felt the need to vote on the move in the Assembly, (3) soon after the move, the procedure for forum transitions would be added to the constitution to clarify how these moves were supposed to be done.



You are wrong yet again. The w11 zetaboards forum was not unavailable. SB, Milo, Bel, and myself decided to move to IPB. We had a very brief discussion on it and then moved. It was never voted on. After that move we added the clauses into the Charter for where the official forum is hosted.


The w11 zetaboards forum was having technical/service issues though; moreover, support for the move was signaled in the Great Council of 2013 which added your forum's url to the constitution.
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Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:58 am

Don't forget the one true forum of TSP.
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Unibot III
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:01 pm

Hileville: Moreover, all of this is purely nostalgic since the Great Council of 2013 added constitutional provisions (which hadn't existed prior) outlining how new forums were supposed to be created; the same procedures which your administration recently took a massive, smelly dump on and hoped nobody would bother to smell.

Don't forget the one true forum of TSP.


I'm not sure TSP considers that one official. :twisted:
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25-05-2008 | Former Delegate of TRR

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9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Headlines from Unibot // WASC HQ: A Guide

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