The North Pacific Wire

[Belschaft]

I've got to say, I'm deeply disappointed in the decision made by both Osiris and The Pacific to abandon long standing support of pan-GCR internationalism, in favor of UCR alliances.

I'm even more disappointed in seeing our erstwhile allies entering into an alliance with The Rejected Realms. Friendly relations with TRR are incompatible with being an ally of TSP.

[Biyah]

Wow, really?

So, if it has UCRs or TRR, it's evil? I wasn't aware that TRR had hurt TSP - as far as I knew, it was Sedge who attacked TSP.

Most interesting
~B

[Astarial]

Ahha, the old "only a tabloid" drift from Astarial.

A real investigative journalist would have figured out the identity of this mysterious Cheesy.

But seriously - it's not investigative when a) the writer didn't investigate and b) the writer wrote a self-admitted tabloid. Like I said, I enjoyed reading it and giggled at the pictures, but he did about as much investigation as any tabloid running scandalous pictures submitted by unpaid photographers.

He only became involved within the last... oh... month or two?

Just when the ball got rolling on the organization (after it had been stalled for a year). Right. -_-

I'm really not sure where you're getting your facts, but you are once again incorrect. Wham and I got the ball re-rolling together. When Wham originally broached the idea of bringing Biyah in I was unhappy with it and he dropped the suggestion at that time. Biyah was eventually brought in - but quite a bit after that.

If you're getting this from a mole, you might want to fire them - they're not very good at it. If you're simply hypothesizing, I would suggest not continuing to ignore the facts, because it's not doing you any favors.

[Belschaft]

Wow, really?

So, if it has UCRs or TRR, it's evil? I wasn't aware that TRR had hurt TSP - as far as I knew, it was Sedge who attacked TSP.

Most interesting
~B

That's some nice sarcasm there Biyah, but anyone as well informed as you are should be be more than aware of the realities of the TSP-TRR situation.

Don't be disingenuous; it's unbecoming in you.

[Cormac Stark]

I'm even more disappointed in seeing our erstwhile allies entering into an alliance with The Rejected Realms. Friendly relations with TRR are incompatible with being an ally of TSP.

The South Pacific is already in a treaty alliance with Osiris, which is already engaged in "friendly relations with TRR" through the Pan-Sinker Security Pact.

[Belschaft]

I'm even more disappointed in seeing our erstwhile allies entering into an alliance with The Rejected Realms. Friendly relations with TRR are incompatible with being an ally of TSP.

The South Pacific is already in a treaty alliance with Osiris, which is already engaged in "friendly relations with TRR" through the Pan-Sinker Security Pact.

There is a great deal of distinction between a mutual defense pact and an organisation with an executive council with such offices as 'Secretary of Intelligence Affairs' and ' Secretary of Military Affairs', and that specifically creates a common standing army.

[Lyanna Stark]

I've got to say, I'm deeply disappointed in the decision made by both Osiris and The Pacific to abandon long standing support of pan-GCR internationalism, in favor of UCR alliances.

I'm even more disappointed in seeing our erstwhile allies entering into an alliance with The Rejected Realms. Friendly relations with TRR are incompatible with being an ally of TSP.

Let's just rehash the fact that this hasn't passed anywhere.

[Cerian Quilor]

Now if Only I could read the debates happening in the Septarchy.

[Cormac Stark]

The South Pacific is already in a treaty alliance with Osiris, which is already engaged in "friendly relations with TRR" through the Pan-Sinker Security Pact.

There is a great deal of distinction between a mutual defense pact and an organisation with an executive council with such offices as 'Secretary of Intelligence Affairs' and ' Secretary of Military Affairs', and that specifically creates a common standing army.

There is in fact a distinction, but you didn't make it. You said: "Friendly relations with TRR are incompatible with being an ally of TSP," full stop. Friendly relations could be coffee with Wham on a Sunday afternoon. Speaking of which: Wham, coffee?

Personally, the last thing that would persuade me to abandon this organization are threats from TSP's military commander dictating who one's allies can and cannot be. Then again, I'm an advocate of regional sovereignty. If only there were an organization to protect the regional sovereignty of those regions that other regions are trying to push around like this. Oh, right, silly me -- that's the organization we're trying to build here.

[Belschaft]

I don't remember making any threats Cormac. Is it really so surprising to discover that maybe, just maybe, there might be two or more regions that you can't possibly be allied with at the same time? Or that TSP - and I should note that I speak in no official capacity here - may have an issue with an ally of theirs allying with an enemy? It's hardly news that we don't like TRR, and vice versa.

[The Blaatschapen]

I didn't realize that regions and organizations couldn't involve themselves in whatever parts of NS they wanted, Glen. Are the Gatekeeper of the GA now?

Once you guys actually bother to participate, you'll have all the right in the world to form a voting bloc.

Wrong. NS players have all the right in the world to play the game however the fuck they want to play it (within the rules said out by the Mods). If that includes creating voting blocs and ruining other people's fun, so be it*.



* I don't think this SovCon organisation is going to do that when it comes to the GA. The SC might be a different matter though.

[Cromarty]

I don't know how anybody in Osiris can still support Madjack as Pharaoh, or really any other member of government.

Happily you rage quit the region and no one cares what you think.

[Cromarty]

I've got to say, I'm deeply disappointed in the decision made by both Osiris and The Pacific to abandon long standing support of pan-GCR internationalism, in favor of UCR alliances.

Yep, Osiris is abandoning pan-GCR internationalism at the very same time as negotiating a pan-GCR treaty with TSP and TNP.

[Whamabama]

It's hardly news that we don't like TRR, and vice versa.

Being the delegate of TRR, I do not hold any ill will, nor do I dislike TSP in any way. It is my hope that TSP continues to enjoy success in everything they do. If TSP does not desire relations with TRR, that's fine. It's TSP's right to do so. It is also TSP's right to dislike me, TRR in general as well. It's unfortunate TSP feels this way, but the feeling of dislike is not mutual.

[Glen-Rhodes]

I don't know how anybody in Osiris can still support Madjack as Pharaoh, or really any other member of government.

Happily you rage quit the region and no one cares what you think.

Wouldn't matter if anybody did. There's no such thing as dissent in Osiris. It's a dysfunctional region that can't even garner the will to punish a coup d'etat, and instead lets the perpetrators have enormous influence over the government. Also, apparently it doesn't understand the meaning of independence or sovereignty. If Osiris is fine with a leader who flipflops and a government without the backbone to disagree with him, then I'm glad I "rage quit."

[Frattastan II]

I'm even more disappointed in seeing our erstwhile allies entering into an alliance with The Rejected Realms. Friendly relations with TRR are incompatible with being an ally of TSP.

So, the worst thing you could find in the SovCon is that TRR is a (potential) member?

It's hardly news that we don't like TRR, and vice versa.

But we like you, actually.

[Belschaft]

I'm even more disappointed in seeing our erstwhile allies entering into an alliance with The Rejected Realms. Friendly relations with TRR are incompatible with being an ally of TSP.

So, the worst thing you could find in the SovCon is that TRR is a (potential) member?

It's hardly news that we don't like TRR, and vice versa.

But we like you, actually.

Like us enough to apologize for the undeclared war you initiated a while ago? Or even admit that you government - sorry, the members of your government acting in a non-official capacity separate from their roles in TRR - did do so? Cos that'd be just swell.

[Cromarty]

Happily you rage quit the region and no one cares what you think.

Wouldn't matter if anybody did. There's no such thing as dissent in Osiris. It's a dysfunctional region that can't even garner the will to punish a coup d'etat, and instead lets the perpetrators have enormous influence over the government. Also, apparently it doesn't understand the meaning of independence or sovereignty. If Osiris is fine with a leader who flipflops and a government without the backbone to disagree with him, then I'm glad I "rage quit."

Considering you were only in the region to bitch and influence how we voted in the WA, I'll take any lectures from on independence and sovereignty as seriously as anything you have to say. That is to say, not at all.

[Frattastan II]

They did so as part of a personal project, outside of TRR, and kept the vast majority of the citizens in the dark about it.
Heck, even the Delegate wasn't informed until after the coup had already happened. At that point, she tried to hide everybody else's involvement to protect TRR and because it was too late to do anything else.

They acted in a way that was irresponsible and damaged our reputation, and arguably they used TRR resources to further personal goals, but it wasn't a planned effort on part of the region to coup TSP.

It's been two years, no hostile actions have happened and no hostile statements have been made since then.
And you are still holding a grudge and considering us an active threat?

[Southern Bellz]

I honestly think that TRR and TSP should try to strengthen our relationship. I made a few comments as delegate about their delegate transfer that rubbed some of them the wrong way, and they made some comments during the coup that ticked me off.

That was a long time ago, i think both of our regions have moved on. I know i have. Let's sit down and talk, we operate with similar allies, have similar gcr issues. I consider it an absolute failure if we don't set aside the past and not only distantly wish each other the best, but forge our futures together.

My real question is aimed at the Pacific. Why is TSP being labeled at a puppet state and as a region that is not close enough to involve in alliance talks in public? In my mind these comments are completely unprovoked and out of left field because up to these comments, we have had years of great relations.

I'm not really going to comment on the alliance itself because its really weird seeing these coy "we didn't say anything yet" in response to comments on this. Good luck though, i think any effort to improve a region makes the game better.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Considering you were only in the region to bitch and influence how we voted in the WA, I'll take any lectures from on independence and sovereignty as seriously as anything you have to say. That is to say, not at all.

That much is clear, and I'm not any kinds of sad about it. I'd just like to continue to point out that you are not a principled delegate. You proclaim that Osiris is independent, yet you're willing to sign over military control to an inter-regional bureaucracy. You're pushing Osiris into an organization with a clear ideological goal, something you said just a few weeks ago that you would never do. Simply put, the policies you have pursued have been hypocritical, and although I'm gladly not a member of Osiris right now, I still think your leadership is quickly pushing Osiris into the wrong direction.

Even with this post, you're being hypocritical. I'm essentially the only person to have ever criticized Osiris' citizenship and WA voting policies. Yet you sit there and insinuate my only purpose in Osiris was to influence the vote. Seriously? I've never voted in more than one region. I've spent years advocating against vote-stacking in the World Assembly. There's a chart in my signature arguing against it, ffs. You're the one who took a one-off measure and fought against actually preventing vote-stacking. Even now, as you push Osiris into a "sovereignty"-based organization (and, really, nobody who drafted that charter has any clue what sovereignty is), there's no indication that you will actually protect Osiris' vote integrity. If there's any positive outcome of this organization, I do hope that it's fighting back against the "cosmopolitan" practice of open voting policies. As somebody who is so concerned with "independence" and "sovereignty," it's a common-sense policy. But then again, perhaps it's too much to expect SovCon and its constituent power-seekers to be consistent in their ideology...

[Cromarty]

You proclaim that Osiris is independent, yet you're willing to sign over military control to an inter-regional bureaucracy.

Can SovCon force a member region into performing X Action?
The only activity that is mandated by our charter is the defense of other member regions. There are many other options available to member regions, including some which are highly recommended, but they are ultimately all voluntary.

Will member regions lose sovereign control over their FA/Military/Intelligence Assets by joining?
No. All regions maintain their own military structure. While SovCon will establish an organized military structure and seek to coordinate communication between regional militaries for joint operations, members retain their independence.

From SovCon's faq posted in mutiple places. Lrn2read.

[Cerian Quilor]

Have TRR or Osiris Approved this yet?

[Cromarty]

Osiris has not.

[Biyah]

None of the regions have - all of them require time for debate before a vote. I wouldn't expect much action for a few days.

GR - there is plenty of dissent. What we don't have is the taste for fanaticism you have. You have an insatiable need to be heard, and when we chose not to listen to you (that happens after a few Wall of Texts that accuses us of everything but sleeping with sheep), suddenly we all become idiots - totally incapable of managing our own affairs, blind to the threats internal and external.

Basically, every time we did something you didn't like (which was almost everything), we were terrible at running our own affairs, because we dared do something of which you didn't approve.

Tl;dr: You're not a God of NS, you're a small fanatical man from whom 90% of your posts was how we should handle our own WA affairs; the other 10% was how we, as a government, were incompetent.

Tell me, we were supposed to listen to you why?

~B