The Rejected Times

[Kringalia]

I think a lot of people would have been interested in the current frantic, almost desperate, attempts by Unibot and Glen to write the crimes I've charged them with out of existence. Strange that.

Those efforts actually predate your filing of charges, but nice try.

[Better Call Saul]

I think a lot of people would have been interested in the current frantic, almost desperate, attempts by Unibot and Glen to write the crimes I've charged them with out of existence. Strange that.

Those efforts actually predate your filing of charges, but nice try.

If the proof is in the pudding, I demand to see your pudding good sir!

[Glen-Rhodes]

Okay. I've called for removing or greatly restricting "defamation" since the 2013 Great Council. There you go.

[Unibot III]

Okay. I've called for removing or greatly restricting "defamation" since the 2013 Great Council. There you go.

I've called for it before 2013 - it was always a bullshit charge and Belschaft's little secret sauce.

Incidentally, I suggested removing defamation once more in the Great Council of 2015 before Belschaft even started threatening me with defamation this time around.

[Better Call Saul]

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm not sure where you knuckle draggers are from but defamation is a serious offence. Even if you want to get rid of the line because you keep passing it in order to defame Belschafts character without fearing the law, it does not change the fact that you are breaking the law.

[Glen-Rhodes]

I'd be breaking the law if what I said wasn't actually true.

[Evil Wolf]

I'd be breaking the law if what I said wasn't actually true.

Except the case will now conveniently never conclude, so less "it's true" and more "I can legally get away with defamation now".

It's unsurprising that the people who would have benefited most from the success of the subversive plot known as Operation Brave Toaster are so upset that Belschaft's citizenship has been removed. They've lost their champion, and their agent, in the Assembly of The South Pacific.

I have never been involved in TSP, other than helping them fight a coup from time to time, and have absolutely nothing to personally gain or lose in pointing out the perversion of justice and democracy TSP is perpetrating in the name of "security".

Because: (a) the Cabinet only empowered to remove citizenship, not to prevent someone from otherwise participating in regional life. Our powers have a limit, and we respected that. (b) his security risk status had to do with his plot to manipulate elections. Removing his right to vote and run for office eliminated a great part of the risk. Fully removing him from the region would not to much of a difference.

If you're so certain of Belschaft's guilt, Kringalia, why has there not been a trial, which will prove to all that he is 100% guilty of his supposed misdeeds? Why are you subverting justice and making a martyr out of what TSP claims is an irrefutably guilty man?

The only reasons I can think of are two fold, either (1) TSP court system is so horrible, so weak, and so incompetent that they can not convict a person with such obvious guilt, meaning TSP is too weak a government to conduct such an easy matter, or (2) Belschaft is not as undeniably guilty as has been claimed and there is a chance that the court might find him legitimately not guilty, meaning that the "Security Threat" declaration was purely political and not motivated by an actual security threat at all.

So which is it, Kringalia?

[Cormac Stark]

I have never been involved in TSP, other than helping them fight a coup from time to time, and have absolutely nothing to personally gain or lose in pointing out the perversion of justice and democracy TSP is perpetrating in the name of "security".

You don't need to be in TSP to gain from Belschaft's presence there. Everyone knows that he is the point person for "independence," and his influence was what kept TSP in lockstep with The New Inquisition and Europeia for as long as it was. Every independent, every imperialist, every raider gains from his presence there, and loses a valuable ally in TSP with the removal of his citizenship.

That so many people outside TSP benefit from his presence in TSP so much more than the actual TSP community does is a good indication that the Cabinet made the right decision. Bel has been working for years to ensure that an ideology pushed largely by foreigners has dominated TSP, and was willing to subvert TSP's democracy to ensure it. Nothing he's been doing has been for the benefit of TSP, it's been for the benefit of people like you and his own benefit, to keep independents, imperialists, and raiders electing him.

[Evil Wolf]

You don't need to be in TSP to gain from Belschaft's presence there.

So I gain *mumbles something incoherency under his breath* from Belschaft being in TSP by him *mumbles even more incontinently*?

Seems legit.

[Cormac Stark]

So I gain *mumbles something incoherency under his breath* from Belschaft being in TSP by him *mumbles even more incontinently*?

Seems legit.

You gain because you're a raider who is, like Belschaft, only involved in Feeders and Sinkers to advance raider interests. The only difference is that you're honest about being a raider and he calls himself an independent. But Bel has advanced raider interests in TSP for years, so yes, people like you do gain from Belschaft's citizenship in TSP and you lose when that citizenship is removed. Which is no doubt why people who aren't even in TSP are in this thread telling them how they should run their government.

[Evil Wolf]

You gain because you're a raider who is, like Belschaft, only involved in Feeders and Sinkers to advance raider interests. The only difference is that you're honest about being a raider and he calls himself an independent.

Sounds like Cormac wants Belschaft out of TSP because he thinks Belschaft will somehow spread raider ideology through his magical enchanted tongue of 10+ persuade. Such a powerful wizard Belschaft must be.

However, Cormac is citing that sole viewpoint as the "security risk" and being perceived as a pro-raider in a supposedly open and free region as TSP claims to be is not an actual security risk...it is however a political risk to those who wish to make TSP "pure" (see "all defender") which would be a political motivation, not a security motivation.

Thank you, Cormac, for possibly shedding light on the true reason that Belschaft was stripped of his citizenship and the corruption that is now eating away at The South Pacific.

[Kringalia]

If you're so certain of Belschaft's guilt, Kringalia, why has there not been a trial, which will prove to all that he is 100% guilty of his supposed misdeeds? Why are you subverting justice and making a martyr out of what TSP claims is an irrefutably guilty man?

The only reasons I can think of are two fold, either (1) TSP court system is so horrible, so weak, and so incompetent that they can not convict a person with such obvious guilt, meaning TSP is too weak a government to conduct such an easy matter, or (2) Belschaft is not as undeniably guilty as has been claimed and there is a chance that the court might find him legitimately not guilty, meaning that the "Security Threat" declaration was purely political and not motivated by an actual security threat at all.

So which is it, Kringalia?

While I admire how you have repeated the arguments that some people in the Assembly have been making, I'll say what many in the Cabinet have been saying for a while now: Belschaft not been declared guilty, he has been declared a security threat. There is difference between the two. Like I said, in TSP we do not circumvent the judiciary just because it might or might not be inconvenient, we follow the law.

Tsunamy
PenguinPies
Unibot
Lord Ravenclaw
ProfessorHenn
Kringalia

Those are the members of the Cabinet. Obviously, all staunch defenders who want to get rid of Belschaft because of political reasons. Right?

[Evil Wolf]

I'll say what many in the Cabinet have been saying for a while now: Belschaft not been declared guilty, he has been declared a security threat. There is difference between the two. Like I said, in TSP we do not circumvent the judiciary just because it might or might not be inconvenient, we follow the law.

And yet, I have noticed, you have still not stated the reason why Belschaft has not been given a trial, Kringalia.

You can't feed the wolf mutton and save the lamb. TSP either says why Belschaft has not been afforded a trial, suppressing the rumors and implications of corruption but exposing the reasoning, or TSP denies the public the reason why Belschaft isn't being given a trial, keeping the reasoning safe and sound, but feeding the rumors and fanning more implications of corruption.

Can't have both and if you hide you're reasoning, don't act all surprised when people accuse TSP of being corrupt. It is a calculated and expected consequence.

[Kringalia]

Two things:

1. We have already explained this matter extensively, and quite frankly I am tired of repeating myself. You choose not to believe the reasons we give, and that is your right. It is also my right to tell you that I am not going to keep repeating what you keep choosing to disregard.

2. The only people whom we owe an explanation is the Assembly, and they have been given one. Nobody outside the region has any "right" to receive an explanation, because we are not accountable to them.

That said...Goodbye!

[Cormac Stark]

Sounds like Cormac wants Belschaft out of TSP because he thinks Belschaft will somehow spread raider ideology through his magical enchanted tongue of 10+ persuade. Such a powerful wizard Belschaft must be.

However, Cormac is citing that sole viewpoint as the "security risk" and being perceived as a pro-raider in a supposedly open and free region as TSP claims to be is not an actual security risk...it is however a political risk to those who wish to make TSP "pure" (see "all defender") which would be a political motivation, not a security motivation.

Thank you, Cormac, for possibly shedding light on the true reason that Belschaft was stripped of his citizenship and the corruption that is now eating away at The South Pacific.

I'm not currently a citizen of The South Pacific either, so nothing I say about it holds anymore weight than anything you say about it.

That said, being pro-raider (or pro-imperialist, or pro-independent, or pro-defender) moves beyond politicking and into the realm of security threats when one is willing to manipulate regional elections with foreign vote stackers and improperly exploit regional institutions to advance their aims. That is what Belschaft did, and that is why he is a security threat and not merely a political threat.

[Evil Wolf]

1. We have already explained this matter extensively, and quite frankly I am tired of repeating myself. You choose not to believe the reasons we give, and that is your right. It is also my right to tell you that I am not going to keep repeating what you keep choosing to disregard.

No, no explaination has been given. When asked why Belschaft wasn't given a trial, Kringalia chose to deflect the question with a non-answer, stating Belschaft didn't need a trial as he was already declared a Security Threat. This reply does nothing to explain why Belschaft was stripped of his rights as a citizen without a fair trial or why a fair trial couldn't be provided.

All Kringalia did was restate that TSP overrode the trial portion entirely and handed out an extra-judicial punishment could be considered highly morally questionable. Kringalia's explanation for this action seems to be in the action itself. The Security Threat declaration dealt out a punishment that would have been equal to that of a conviction, therefore no trial is needed, Kringalia argues. The sentence "guilty" is being given and punishment handed, but not before a court and not in a fair and public trial. The reason why? Never explained.

2. The only people whom we owe an explanation is the Assembly, and they have been given one. Nobody outside the region has any "right" to receive an explanation, because we are not accountable to them.

Unfortunately, you still have to be held accountable to the public opinion, Kringalia. That truth can not be avoided. So let us review, ladies and gentlemen, shall we?

When asked for a reason why Belschaft was denied a trial, one which he will surely be found guilty if the Cabinet is to be believed, Kringalia avoided the question entirely. When it was pointed out that Kringalia avoided the question, they chose to refuse to answer any more questions in a huff.

Does this sound like the response of an honest government that has nothing to hide?

[Cormac Stark]

No, no explaination has been given. When asked why Belschaft wasn't given a trial, Kringalia chose to deflect the question with a non-answer, stating Belschaft didn't need a trial as he was already declared a Security Threat. This reply does nothing to explain why Belschaft was stripped of his rights as a citizen without a fair trial or why a fair trial couldn't be provided.

The Assembly of The South Pacific chose to legislate a provision into the Charter that empowers the Cabinet to remove the citizenship of those who are determined to be a security threat, which is then subject to appeal to the Assembly. The Cabinet exercised this legal power, an appeal was made to the Assembly, and the Assembly rejected the appeal by an overwhelming margin.

Belschaft has not been charged with any crime, as yet, and has not been found guilty of any crime. That is a separate matter for the judiciary, and if he opts to maintain residence in The South Pacific he will still have all the rights guaranteed to residents by the Charter. You're basically arguing that he has been banned without trial, but he hasn't. His citizenship has been removed, and all removal of citizenship means is that he no longer has any vote in the Assembly he was trying to manipulate, no vote in the elections he was trying to manipulate, and no ability to hold any of the offices he was seeking to improperly exploit. He is still entitled to maintain residence and to freely participate in the community.

All Kringalia did was restate that TSP overrode the trial portion entirely and handed out an extra-judicial punishment that is highly morally questionable.

Morally questionable. This from you.

Kringalia actually didn't state any such thing, because:

1. No trial was overridden. Belschaft could still be tried.
2. The extra-judicial power exercised was granted and upheld on appeal by the Assembly.
3. This was not a "punishment," it was a security measure.

Kringalia explanation for this action seems to be in the action itself. The Security Threat declaration dealt out a punishment that would have been equal to that of a conviction, therefore no trial is needed, Kringalia argues. The sentence "guilty" is being given and punishment handed, but not before a court and not in a fair and public trial. The reason why? Never explained.

The reasons why have been explained time and time again. Through Operation Brave Toaster, Belschaft sought to stack the Assembly with foreign voters for the purpose of taking control of the Cabinet and the Court. Then, once in control, he was going to use the Cabinet to remove Unibot and perhaps others as security threats to The South Pacific, and he was going to use the Court to nullify The South Pacific's treaty with The Rejected Realms (and, presumably, Lazarus). All of this is well documented in the various logs that have been posted.

Initially expressing remorse and humility, Belschaft has now decided he did nothing wrong, filed defamation charges against those who said he did, and sought to re-enter the very public offices he was seeking to exploit for subversive purposes. Obviously, quick action was needed, which does not preclude further judicial action.

There has been no guilty verdict and no punishment given. The security measure was not at all equal to a sentence that likely would have resulted from conviction of a crime, as such a sentence would likely be much more severe -- stripping Belschaft's citizenship, surely, but probably also preventing him from participating in the community as a resident at all. All of this is you putting words in the mouth of the Cabinet and the Assembly as a foreign provocateur with a vested interest in seeing Belschaft back in The South Pacific, manipulating its elections and exploiting its institutions.

Unfortunately, you still have to be held accountable to the public opinion, Kringalia. That truth can not be avoided. So let us review, ladies and gentlemen, shall we?

When asked for a reason why Belschaft was denied a trial, one which he will surely be found guilty if the Cabinet is to be believed, Kringalia avoided the question entirely. When it was pointed out that Kringalia avoided the question, they chose to refuse to answer any more questions in a huff.

Does this sound like the response of an honest government that has nothing to hide?

The Cabinet of The South Pacific is accountable to the Assembly of The South Pacific, and to no one else. The Assembly has overwhelmingly upheld the Cabinet's decision. This crap about being accountable to "public opinion" is just that: crap. There is nothing you or any other foreigner can do to hold either the Cabinet or the Assembly accountable. The Cabinet has taken action, the Assembly has voted to uphold that action, and the "public opinion" of the Founder of Lone Wolves United and other provocateurs from Europeia and elsewhere really have no meaningful effect on TSP. What are you going to do, Wolf, terminate the LWU treaty that TSP already terminated? What is Europeia going to do, terminate its treaty with TSP and drive TSP even closer to its existing defender allies and other potential allies?

You're all trying to apply pressure to see if it sticks, but the truth of the matter is all any of you can do is what you're already doing: complain here. Do you really think loud complaining in Gameplay is going to scare the Cabinet or Assembly of The South Pacific into reversing their decision and restoring an obvious security threat to citizenship?

[Evil Wolf]

The Cabinet has taken action, the Assembly has voted to uphold that action, and the "public opinion" of the Founder of Lone Wolves United and other provocateurs from Europeia and elsewhere really have no meaningful effect on TSP.

Oh, am I a dangerous revolutionary, an agent provocateur, for asking thought provoking questions now, Cormac?

Quickly, you should run to the Cabinet and have them declare me a Security Threat before I can ask any more dangerous queries.

1. No trial was overridden. Belschaft could still be tried.

And so I find myself asking again, then why has he not been tried?

[Cormac Stark]

Oh, am I a dangerous revolutionary, an agent provocateur, for asking thought provoking questions now, Cormac?

Quickly, you should run to the Cabinet and have them declare me a Security Threat before I can ask any more dangerous queries.

You're good at this putting words in people's mouth thing, I"ll give you that.

I didn't call you "a dangerous revolutionary" or "an agent provocateur." I called you a provocateur, the definition of which is "a person who provokes trouble, causes dissension, or the like; agitator." Do you actually deny that you're doing that here? The thoughts you're trying to provoke are that this decision was wrong, and what you and others are trying to do is agitate enough public pressure to see the Cabinet or Assembly reverse Belschaft's citizenship removal so that he can keep doing the good work he was doing for all of you in the Assembly and other public institutions of The South Pacific.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Cormac, Belschaft isn't doing any work for 'us'. You were an Imperialist once, and the monthly memos from Imperialist High Command were pretty clear about who our plants in TSP are, and Belschaft was never one of them.

[Evil Wolf]

Should I join TSP so I can speak as a citizen then Cormac? Will my questions suddenly be more or less relevant because I have the title, hm?

TSP shouldn't be afraid of little old me, a non-citizen with no stake in TSP other than some vague sense of foreboding, as Cormac would like to believe. Why, then, are TSP officials running from the very simple question?

Why is Belschaft not on trial?

[Cormac Stark]

Cormac, Belschaft isn't doing any work for 'us'. You were an Imperialist once, and the monthly memos from Imperialist High Command were pretty clear about who our plants in TSP are, and Belschaft was never one of them.

Belschaft chose of his own accord to advance your interests in The South Pacific, because they also advanced his interests; your voters in TSP would return him to office. That he wasn't planted there doesn't mean that he wasn't working for your interests. He quite clearly was.

Should I join TSP so I can speak as a citizen then Cormac? Will my questions suddenly be more or less relevant because I have the title, hm?

TSP shouldn't be afraid of little old me, a non-citizen with no stake in TSP other than some vague sense of foreboding, as Cormac would like to believe. Why, then, are TSP officials running from the very simple question?

Why is Belschaft not on trial?

I would imagine Belschaft is not on trial because at the time of this incident, he expressed remorse and humility and didn't contest his recall from public office. Most communities prefer to avoid maximum drama when someone is willing to do the minimum necessary to demonstrate that they understand what they've done and want to make amends for it. That situation changed when Belschaft decided he had done nothing wrong, decided to create turmoil by bringing charges of defamation against those who insisted he had done something wrong, and tried to re-enter public office with this remorseless, defiant attitude. That demonstrated that he never really had any remorse and was just biding his time to avoid further security measures or legal charges.

In the lead up to this decision, the Court did not have all of its justices and could not operate as a special election was ongoing. Since this decision, Belschaft has fled The South Pacific and is now beyond the jurisdiction of its Court.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Belschaft chose of his own accord to advance your interests in The South Pacific, because they also advanced his interests; your voters in TSP would return him to office. That he wasn't planted there doesn't mean that he wasn't working for your interests. He quite clearly was.

'We' don't have voters in Cormac. There is no grand imperialist conspiracy, which you know full well. I forgot that you've lost your funny bone, and refuse to accept that someone can offer ideas just as ridiculous as yours without believing their own shit.

There is also a difference between saying you didn't do anything wrong and saying that since they weren't convicted, they can't be called a criminal.

[A mean old man]

*incontinently*

lel

[Evil Wolf]

*incontinently*

lel

Oh AMOM, you would notice that, you Grammar Francoist, you.