The Rejected Times

[KaelThas Quilor]

What a lot of defenders and enemies of Europeia think we are: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... fVagueness

What we are: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... fBickering

[Consular]

Could you start putting anchors in issue posts so readers can jump to specific articles?

I'll just quote this so it doesn't get lost in whatever everyone is arguing about.

[Comrade Anders Blakewood]

I'd like to apologize for any Europeians being pulled into the "slack-jawed dimwits" discussion. It was made by a TCB official on the Europeian off-site forums. I know Cormac and Misley never thought highly of you guys normally, but they're finding even more of an excuse to attack a well-established and respected region.

[RiderSyl]

What a lot of defenders and enemies of Europeia think we are: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... fVagueness

What we are: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... fBickering

TV Tropes references used to summarize a NS debate.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

Tends to be a turn-off for us scummy dimwits.

You said it, not me.

Nobody has earned being called scum and slack-jawed dimwits, insults you take off-site because you'd be warned for flaming for them here. No wonder the gameplayer elitists who comprise Europeia are so obsessed with off-site forum communities, they allow you to create exactly the kind of poisonous and toxic gameplay environment I referenced in my retirement post, an environment that would not be tolerated on-site.

Oh Jesus weeps. Let me just say that a discussion on insulting rhetoric in R/D debates may not be to your advantage.

I'm just gonna let y'all be convinced by G-R that there is some powerful "euro establishment". That makes us sound much more powerful and sexy than the truth: that Lethen, NES (to give an example) and I can't agree on what breakfast cereal is best, much less major DoPo or FoPo issues.

DOn't do that. Consider this your one and only unofficial warning.

[KaelThas Quilor]

What a lot of defenders and enemies of Europeia think we are: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... fVagueness

What we are: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... fBickering

TV Tropes references used to summarize a NS debate.

It seemed fitting.

[Glen-Rhodes]

It's a purely hypothetical scenario: namely, would you not object if NES made allegations against you and said people should believe it because the evidence has been deposited with two senior members of Europeian Cabinet? You would be strenuously objecting if the situation were reversed in such a way.

NES (and you, for that matter) frequently make allegations against me. Like I said, you know exactly how I'd respond, because you regularly throw about accusations any time we have any kind of exchange.

Anyways, I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm simply not going to let NES go about without being called out. He knows what he's done. I know what he's done. Others, both in TSP and in Euro, know what he's done. My goal here is to make sure we all don't forget it. It's not to convince you of anything.

Regarding the "Euro Establishment" thing, if I've made it seem like I think there's some secretive IRC cabal that plans schemes out 10 steps ahead, I apologize. I don't think it's that organized. I think NES had it in his mind that a formerly reliable Independent region and imperialist ally was being slowly changed by myself, and later Unibot. I think he couldn't let that go unchallenged, and when he heard that we were planning on attending both the Independence and Regional Sovereignty conferences, he saw an opportunity to advocate placing pressure on TSP (in an attempt to somehow inflict costs on Unibot and I, and maybe Kris). I don't think he had things planned out at all for what might happen next. If he did, then as I said, it was a hilarious failure.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Advocacy is somehow sinister why?

NES isn't an idiot - your proposed scenario doesn't seem to give him any advantage if targeting you and Unibot was the point. The problem came from Euro actually feeling aggrieved over the whole other conference thing. Not because NES was trying to hurt you in some vast indirect way.

[Anumia]

The best part is I think most of you even believe your own bullshit.

I'm just gonna leave this right here, and win the thread. No need to thank me folks; it's all over and we can rest now.

[Cormac Stark]

I'd like to apologize for any Europeians being pulled into the "slack-jawed dimwits" discussion. It was made by a TCB official on the Europeian off-site forums. I know Cormac and Misley never thought highly of you guys normally, but they're finding even more of an excuse to attack a well-established and respected region.

ModernSin was Europeian before anyone had ever heard of The Communist Bloc and has served in Europeia's government on numerous occasions. He is a member of the Citizens' Assembly right now. Now, The Communist Bloc really should do something about one of its ministers calling members of The Internationale "slack-jawed dimwits." But to suggest that Europeia is being unfairly pulled into this situation when the remarks were made by a Europeian citizen who has served and is serving in the Europeian government on the Europeian forum is just a little bit ridiculous.

Also, Misley and I are not the same person. Until you brought it up, I haven't actually even commented on the fact that ModernSin is also one of TCB's ministers and this is yet another slap in the face of The Internationale and the NationStates left by your allegedly communist region.

[Zenya]

I will make taking care this super duper serious provocation my #1 priority after TI passes its formal condemnation of TCB Obviously your condemnation isn't a biggie.

This isn't even about TCB, its about Cormac's crusade against the UIAF. Sucks that he's going to drag down TI by association.

[Cormac Stark]

I will make taking care this super duper serious provocation my #1 priority after TI passes its formal condemnation of TCB Obviously your condemnation isn't a biggie.

This isn't even about TCB, its about Cormac's crusade against the UIAF. Sucks that he's going to drag down TI by association.

As it has been Comrade Misley, not me, who has been addressing these highly offensive remarks from a minister of your region, and Misley does not share my crusade against the UIAF -- which by the way I don't deny, I'm proud to be anti-imperialist -- I fail to see how this is about that.

But while we're now on this topic, I also find it amusing and just a little bit hypocritical that just days ago Mr. Blakewood was complaining that you had been personally attacked, portraying you as a martyr, and demanding civility and for The Internationale to do something about personal attacks that weren't even coming from The Internationale. Now here we are and one of your ministers has referred to everyone in The Internationale as "slack-jawed dimwits," and the only response you have for us is to try to deflect the entire matter and completely evade responsibility for the harsh personal attack against members of The Internationale by an official of your government? Martyr you are not, Zenny.

[Zenya]

Not personally attacked, sexually harassed. There is a big difference, Cormac. A player continuously harassed me on and off site and made uncomfortable sexual advances towards me. If you think THIS is comparable to that, I don't ever want to speak to you again.

Meanwhile, The Red Fleet is helping out this player, and will be putting him back as founder most likely after his account was deleted for just what he did on site. Not counting Facebook, Plug.dj, Skype, our offsite forums (where he has I believe 7 or 8 banned accounts now), etc.

[Skizzy Grey]

I just want to know if I'm part of the "establishment," or if I'm a "yes man, puppet, or mouthpiece."

Seriously, if you're not going to spell out who's part of this shadowy group that supposedly runs Europeia in lieu of our elected government, then you're just calling us names. That goes with the territory for us -- success breeds all sorts of jealousy -- but it reflects poorly on you, and on TRR for giving you a megaphone.

[The Blaatschapen]

Not personally attacked, sexually harassed. There is a big difference, Cormac. A player continuously harassed me on and off site and made uncomfortable sexual advances towards me. If you think THIS is comparable to that, I don't ever want to speak to you again.

If someone is harassing you on site, please request moderation assistance here: http://www.nationstates.net/page=help

The Blaatschapen - Nationstates Moderator

[The Risen Jaguar Warriors]

Not personally attacked, sexually harassed. There is a big difference, Cormac. A player continuously harassed me on and off site and made uncomfortable sexual advances towards me. If you think THIS is comparable to that, I don't ever want to speak to you again.

Absolutely appalling. I thought that disgusting, despicable, vile shit only happened on RuneScape (I know because of my poor sister :_:).

@Zenny: I'd suggest you file a GHR while you still have the evidence.

Not personally attacked, sexually harassed. There is a big difference, Cormac. A player continuously harassed me on and off site and made uncomfortable sexual advances towards me. If you think THIS is comparable to that, I don't ever want to speak to you again.

If someone is harassing you on site, please request moderation assistance here: http://www.nationstates.net/page=help

The Blaatschapen - Nationstates Moderator

Mod-ninja'd. But the same message rings true: Please file a GHR @Zenny while you still have the evidence. Cough up all of the TGs and RMB posts you can find.

[Zenya]

Not personally attacked, sexually harassed. There is a big difference, Cormac. A player continuously harassed me on and off site and made uncomfortable sexual advances towards me. If you think THIS is comparable to that, I don't ever want to speak to you again.

If someone is harassing you on site, please request moderation assistance here: http://www.nationstates.net/page=help

The Blaatschapen - Nationstates Moderator

I already have, about 4 times. He was warned 2-3 times prior to being deleted by a mod, but they went just short of DOS, I guess. "Socialist federative republic of sornia" was the old main nation. The harassment has very recently ceased (as far as I know, since he seems to use tons of IPs and new names to contact me off-site), which I'm very thankful for since I had considered quitting NS towards the end if nothing changed, but I've had to keep my eyes peeled.

[Cormac Stark]

Not personally attacked, sexually harassed. There is a big difference, Cormac. A player continuously harassed me on and off site and made uncomfortable sexual advances towards me. If you think THIS is comparable to that, I don't ever want to speak to you again.

I wasn't at all aware of that. Obviously no, this is not comparable to that, and that is vile. There's no place for that in NationStates or anywhere else and I'm sorry you went through it.

[RiderSyl]

I wasn't at all aware of that. Obviously no, this is not comparable to that, and that is vile. There's no place for that in NationStates or anywhere else and I'm sorry you went through it.

As I'm sure players from all sides of NationStates do, I completely agree with the above. I personally helped a female player that was being sexually harassed, and the word "vile" is the perfect word to describe what it is.

[Onderkelkia]

It's a purely hypothetical scenario: namely, would you not object if NES made allegations against you and said people should believe it because the evidence has been deposited with two senior members of Europeian Cabinet? You would be strenuously objecting if the situation were reversed in such a way.

NES (and you, for that matter) frequently make allegations against me. Like I said, you know exactly how I'd respond, because you regularly throw about accusations any time we have any kind of exchange.

You are ignoring the point, namely that the problem is expecting people to believe this based on what you claim to have disclosed to a couple of TSP senior cabinet members - people can have no assurance of if this evidence exists and if so how, what the correct interpretation of this evidence is.

I do not believe I have ever made claims against you based on evidence which I have refused to disclose. I've offered criticism of your public actions.

Anyways, I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm simply not going to let NES go about without being called out. He knows what he's done. I know what he's done. Others, both in TSP and in Euro, know what he's done. My goal here is to make sure we all don't forget it. It's not to convince you of anything.

Never mind me, there is no reason for anyone else to believe you either.

Regarding the "Euro Establishment" thing, if I've made it seem like I think there's some secretive IRC cabal that plans schemes out 10 steps ahead, I apologize. I don't think it's that organized. I think NES had it in his mind that a formerly reliable Independent region and imperialist ally was being slowly changed by myself, and later Unibot. I think he couldn't let that go unchallenged, and when he heard that we were planning on attending both the Independence and Regional Sovereignty conferences, he saw an opportunity to advocate placing pressure on TSP (in an attempt to somehow inflict costs on Unibot and I, and maybe Kris). I don't think he had things planned out at all for what might happen next. If he did, then as I said, it was a hilarious failure.

This is pure speculation.

You're assuming that Europeia's concern was seeking to undermine the position of Unibot and yourself in the view of TSP's public. There's no reason why that would be their priority, as opposed to objecting the disruptive actions of TSP's government in relation to their planned conference - although clearly how the interpretation of these events goes at home is your principal concern in this situation, which may explain why you are imputing this motive onto others.

[Comrade Anders Blakewood]

I wasn't at all aware of that. Obviously no, this is not comparable to that, and that is vile. There's no place for that in NationStates or anywhere else and I'm sorry you went through it.

As I'm sure players from all sides of NationStates do, I completely agree with the above. I personally helped a female player that was being sexually harassed, and the word "vile" is the perfect word to describe what it is.

That's what we were reaching out for. "Let's not sexually harass each other."

TI misunderstood, but all we wanted was common ground on common decency. Every region in NS would agree, let's not sexually harass each other.

[KaelThas Quilor]

I'd like to apologize for any Europeians being pulled into the "slack-jawed dimwits" discussion. It was made by a TCB official on the Europeian off-site forums. I know Cormac and Misley never thought highly of you guys normally, but they're finding even more of an excuse to attack a well-established and respected region.

ModernSin was Europeian before anyone had ever heard of The Communist Bloc and has served in Europeia's government on numerous occasions. He is a member of the Citizens' Assembly right now. Now, The Communist Bloc really should do something about one of its ministers calling members of The Internationale "slack-jawed dimwits." But to suggest that Europeia is being unfairly pulled into this situation when the remarks were made by a Europeian citizen who has served and is serving in the Europeian government on the Europeian forum is just a little bit ridiculous.

Also, Misley and I are not the same person. Until you brought it up, I haven't actually even commented on the fact that ModernSin is also one of TCB's ministers and this is yet another slap in the face of The Internationale and the NationStates left by your allegedly communist region.

Cormac, you've been in Europeia enough times to know that being in the citizens assembly is not serving in the Europeian government. The metric for entry is being a citizen, that's all. He's no more speaking for Europeia than I or any other private citizen in Europeia is.

[Solorni]

The idea of a Europeian cabal is ridiculous because while Europeia has been a home for many great players, and has nurtured and helped developed many of them there is a lot diversity in that group. One only has to look at the recent Senate discussion with Senator and Minister Notolecta vehemently opposing an appointment by President Mousebumples to realize that this is a group of individuals who happen to live with eachother but aren't part of some freemason organization. Zenny and I are also well documented as being odds at times with different members of Europeia.

Even Cormac himself was I believe one time a Senator in Europeia...

[Glen-Rhodes]

Advocacy is somehow sinister why?

NES isn't an idiot - your proposed scenario doesn't seem to give him any advantage if targeting you and Unibot was the point. The problem came from Euro actually feeling aggrieved over the whole other conference thing. Not because NES was trying to hurt you in some vast indirect way.

Euro was not simply aggrieved. Aggrieved allies talk through issues. Euro did not talk to us. Kraketopia went straight to delivering an ultimatum, telling us that *other conference attendees* wanted TSP to prove its Independence. That's the move of an ally that wants to cause problems.

Euro was obstinate the entire time, even when the DELEGATE of TSP was trying to reach an acceptable compromise. That is the action of an "ally" that wanted to bring down TSP's Cabinet, after we just dealt with TNI unilaterally ending their alliance,

The part where we were told *several times* that these demands were being made by *other* conference attendees is the part you should take out of this. This was when Euro was saying that the list of attendees was small, and NES was definitely on the list. There is no way any honest telling of this history does not point to a purposeful attempt at sabotaging TSP's alliances with Independent regions.

[KaelThas Quilor]

'Aggrieved' means that Europeia feels insulted/offended/etc.

You may work thinks out when you have a reason to feel aggrieved, and I agree that generally aggrievement works best when worked through. But sometimes people, being freaking people, don't act rationally. History is full of foreign relations being affected by people being who and what they are (imperfect, emotional people) making missteps.

Your view of how the world is supposed to operate is not actually how it does operate.