The Rejected Times

[Cerian Quilor]

I could give you a detailed, long reply. However, I neither have the time nor the inclination to tilt at the windmill that is Glen-Rhodes right now.

0.) Rule of law? What law? Osiris has no law.
1.) Actually, Venico does have ideas, and they're littered across this forum and that of the OFO for anyone to see.
2.) No, it really isn't a coup
3.) Osiris remains sovreign. I grant this is something of a judgement point, and not everyone is going to draw the same conclusion from the evidence available, but from what I know of the people involved, and everything I can know and see, It is easy to know that Osiris remains sovreign.
4.) See point number 3. I'm not weakening my views on the GCRs, because I don't agree with your interpretation of events.

And yes, actually, there is every need to pick one if you want any future for Osiris to be there at all. By your own words, the electorate is stupid. The mass of uniformed WA nations have rarely exercised any informed use of their WA endorsements in this game. There's a reason why people talk about the lemming vote. Its the reason why tarting works at all, and its the reason why most regions move their elections to an offsite forum.

[Whiskum]

This really does mark the end of the norm against GCR coups. You guys have given in to Osiris fatigue. Balder is supporting the coup of a GCR, and reluctantly going along with the Brotherhood of Malice's subjugation. The same goes for Euro, TNI, Albion, and yourself, all of whom have gone to great lengths trying to convince skeptics that they see GCR sovereignty as inviolable, only to throw it all away, because, hey, The Empire is bad, so Venico must be good.

Osiris has suffered a complete collapse in order. From the December 2012 coup to their recent efforts to undermine the political institutions of Osiris, "the Empire" has been at the heart of this collapse of order. In that context, the legitimate Delegate of Osiris has every right to remove those elements which are preventing Osiris moving forward and in taking this action he enjoys strong inter-regional support (including that of Balder, Osiris's sister sinker).

If you want to see what a real GCR coup is, then take a look at the defender-Francoist takeover of Lazarus, predicated on a purge of 'imperialists' who (unlike "the Empire" in Osiris) had, at that the time of the purge, done absolutely nothing to threaten the stability of government in Lazarus. The NPO instigated this chain of events, many UDL members have collaborated with the takeover and the FRA has admitted Lazarus as a new member-region. If you want to see a failure of the inter-regional community to defend GCR sovereignty, look no further than defender-Francoist complicity in Lazarus.

[Todd McCloud]

This really does mark the end of the norm against GCR coups. You guys have given in to Osiris fatigue. Balder is supporting the coup of a GCR, and reluctantly going along with the Brotherhood of Malice's subjugation. The same goes for Euro, TNI, Albion, and yourself, all of whom have gone to great lengths trying to convince skeptics that they see GCR sovereignty as inviolable, only to throw it all away, because, hey, The Empire is bad, so Venico must be good.

It's typically like this in the early stages of things. Once the other side (in this case, a third side) gains momentum, there will be a shift. Inevitably the other two sides will mess up. But the odd thing is, one side already has messed up and the other side keeps tripping over its girth. The amount of passes they receive for their heinous treatment of Osiris and their attempts at colonizing the region will be their undoing eventually, I think.

[Todd McCloud]

3.) Osiris remains sovreign. I grant this is something of a judgement point, and not everyone is going to draw the same conclusion from the evidence available, but from what I know of the people involved, and everything I can know and see, It is easy to know that Osiris remains sovreign.

Did you realize that before or after you had to swear an oath to the Brotherhood of Malice in a forum that is controlled by the Brotherhood of Malice in a region that now waves the Brotherhood of Malice's flag where the Brotherhood of Malice's installed delegate greets the occupied Osirians in a TG with "We have claimed Osiris"?

Come on, man. You're smarter than this.

1.) Actually, Venico does have ideas, and they're littered across this forum and that of the OFO for anyone to see.

Can I count on you to update me then? I've been banned from their forums, lol.

[The North Polish Union]

3.) Osiris remains sovreign. I grant this is something of a judgement point, and not everyone is going to draw the same conclusion from the evidence available, but from what I know of the people involved, and everything I can know and see, It is easy to know that Osiris remains sovreign.

Did you realize that before or after you had to swear an oath to the Brotherhood of Malice in a forum that is controlled by the Brotherhood of Malice in a region that now waves the Brotherhood of Malice's flag where the Brotherhood of Malice's installed delegate greets the occupied Osirians in a TG with "We have claimed Osiris"?

Come on, man. You're smarter than this.

1.) Actually, Venico does have ideas, and they're littered across this forum and that of the OFO for anyone to see.

Can I count on you to update me then? I've been banned from their forums, lol.

IIRC, Cerian has said before that he has avoided joining GCR's, so he wouldn't really know about the forum citizenship app and the welcome TG.

[Cerian Quilor]

If anyone takes the oath seriously, then they're fools. That said, I was unaware of the oath. (since yes, I don't join GCRs) I don't think it means what you think it means, but I'll conceed its a thing.

You don't need to be on the OFO forums to see the ideas they've said right here.

[Biyah]

Cerian Quilor

0.) Rule of law? What law? Osiris has no law.

Which means anything goes, eh? I like it. Nevermind we had a legislature.

1.) Actually, Venico does have ideas, and they're littered across this forum and that of the OFO for anyone to see.

Oh, we're all aware he has ideas. It's the ideas he has that are scary.

2.) No, it really isn't a coup

Yes, it most certainly is. You don't remove citizens for voicing an opinion, and lump all nay-sayers as 'Empire stooges!' if you have legitimacy.

3.) Osiris remains sovreign. I grant this is something of a judgement point, and not everyone is going to draw the same conclusion from the evidence available, but from what I know of the people involved, and everything I can know and see, It is easy to know that Osiris remains sovreign.

Judgement point indeed - again, you can't remove citizens and call yourself Sovereign. You can't fly a foreign flag and say it's all for the citizens, if the region is sovereign. You can't banject any citizen that disagrees with foreign occupation, and still call the region sovereign.

What people call 'The Empire' are just 3 longtime citizens of Osiris. We flew the Empire flag in December for about a minute or two, and that was only to piss Tim off (long story). It was suggested we fly it (by someone on Ven's side now) to show Asta that the government (over 50% at that point) wasn't going to just let her do her thing and ignore the people. The Empire flag is very, VERY noticeable. Dia, Axis, Raven, etc - none are Empire members, but flew the flag as a show of solidarity.

I am a vocal man, and I have very solid ideas about how a region should be run - and I've been in high government from the start (1st Sepatarchy). So naturally I have influence, and naturally I protect my interests - any government official does, that's politics

Dali and I both generally agree on how GCRs should be run, so we often echo eachother - however, that does not mean that every opinion that Venico, Cormac, Raven et al don't like constitute an Empire action. To think such is ridiculous, and nothing more than a propagandic point.

If Empire were in charge of Osiris, we would not have had a line of screw-up delegates and coups. If Empire was going to hold Osiris, we'd never have left it go after the December's 24 hour takeover.

In short, we're nothing but an excuse for Ven/Koth/Raven to have fun. We were removed from our home just for the hell of it - and there is nothing that irritates me more then that kind of stupid arrogance.

~B

[Anumia]

There's no need to "pick one." The community of Osiris will choose who they wish. The one with popular support that returns Osiris to the rule of law will be the legitimate government. Until then, neither side has any real interest in doing that, so neither side should be supported. You guys are basically engaging in a policy of appeasement. You guys are throwing all your support at Venico's coup, not because you support his ideas (he doesn't have any) or think his government is legitimate (it's a coup). You guys are doing it because you're too weak to actually stand up for GCR sovereignty when there's no clear-cut successor to a coup.

This really does mark the end of the norm against GCR coups. You guys have given in to Osiris fatigue. Balder is supporting the coup of a GCR, and reluctantly going along with the Brotherhood of Malice's subjugation. The same goes for Euro, TNI, Albion, and yourself, all of whom have gone to great lengths trying to convince skeptics that they see GCR sovereignty as inviolable, only to throw it all away, because, hey, The Empire is bad, so Venico must be good.

I spent about 14 hours continuously in IRC, the Euro forums, these forums, on Skype, etc, after already being awake for 20 or so hours, and spoke with many people within the Republic, watched the #osi and #osiris channels, spoke with three other GCR Delegates, Todd, and also spoke to Venico impressing the need to ensure Osiris' sovereignty and step back on the BoM control stuff...before declaring the Republic in their favour. We remain firmly committed to that ideal, believe The Empire violated Osiris' sovereignty by repeatedly threatening Pharaohs with overthrow to get their way, and if the Brotherhood of Malice looks to become a genuine threat to sovereignty, or beyond the harsher rhetoric and roleplay that the earlier stages of this fight has seen, appear to be turning the matter into a real colonisation of Osiris, we will be furious - and will move swiftly.

As it stands, I believe Venico has made some tactical errors in PR, but has the right intentions, and hope that this continues to be the case.

[Cerian Quilor]

Just for the hell of it? Even if we accept your false narrative, at the very leas they threw you out because they didn't like you or your ideas, which hardly qualifes as 'for the hell of it.'

Maintaining internal consistencies in your own arguements works pretty well, Biyah. Makes people take you more seriously.

[Biyah]

I expected better. You latch onto five words of my entire post and ignore the rest?

I guess I should have expected as much.

"For the hell of it" IE - for none of the reasons previously provided. This is a coup, they didn't do this to remove Empire, they did this for power. That qualifies as 'for the hell of it' to me.

Remember, this is supposed to be for the good of Osiris - not because we're 'not liked'.

[Todd McCloud]

If anyone takes the oath seriously, then they're fools. That said, I was unaware of the oath. (since yes, I don't join GCRs) I don't think it means what you think it means, but I'll conceed its a thing.

You don't need to be on the OFO forums to see the ideas they've said right here.

Yeah, I mean, they're just oaths after all. Not like they mean anything on NS these days. They're just words... kind of like these words:

My intention going forward will be to serve until the end of Asta's term. Some people have tried telling me to stay until January, because that would mean a full two months, but I'm not doing that. I will be serving until elections are held on December 15th. What? He's not grabbing power? Is this really Osiris? =P I'm not an elected delegate. I'm in this position because of a resignation. I can't in good faith just make up my own term and serve as a full delegate. If for some God awful reason December comes around and you people want me as delegate still? Ask me to run. - Venico, 11/18/13 (source)

You know... just words.

[The North Polish Union]

I thought Venico didn't grab power until after he had defeated Dali in the WAD elections...

[Ambroscus Koth]

I thought Venico didn't grab power until after he had defeated Dali in the WAD elections...

There were no elections. There were never going to be any elections.

[Biyah]

There were no elections. There were never going to be any elections.

quoted.

Thank you for admitting it.

[Todd McCloud]

I thought Venico didn't grab power until after he had defeated Dali in the WAD elections...

There were no elections. There were never going to be any elections.

Thank you for that admission. I'll add it to the list.

[Mad Jack]

This is amusing to see.

I thought you weren't going to be backing Empire, Todd?

[Todd McCloud]

This is amusing to see.

I thought you weren't going to be backing Empire, Todd?

How... does catching one of the BoM members in a lie... constitute as a move for the Empire? I'm confused.

[The Dourian Embassy]

This is amusing to see.

I thought you weren't going to be backing Empire, Todd?

How... does catching one of the BoM members in a lie... constitute as a move for the Empire? I'm confused.

Mostly neutral observer here(who loves seeing Biyah squirm), I'm not sure what you mean. There's not enough context to the above statement from Koth to indicate anything of the sort. I suppose if you have some preconceived notion in mind that paints him as a bad guy, you could take that to mean something bad, or you could take it to mean that the Empire wouldn't have allowed elections and would've just done the same thing they've done to each and every Pharaoh since they first got involved in Osiris. Threaten them until they got their way.

Besides, what the hell good is an election with them still there? Biyah and his cronies have a long long history of screwing with elections in Osiris. I can't count how many times I got threatened with Biyah burning the place to the ground while I was still Pharaoh.

Hell, I burned it to the ground myself in the hopes of catching him in the flames. At least these guys are really trying to build something.

Edit: You want to know why international support is with Venico? Because by and large he's right. And almost everyone gets that.

[Ambroscus Koth]

There were no elections. There were never going to be any elections.

quoted.

Thank you for admitting it.

Did Kog's interview with Venico, in which he publicly stated he had this planned for a month in advance, seriously not tip you off to the fact that elections were never going to happen?

Oy vey. Here I was thinking I didn't have to fuel my own resistance, but they're too incompetent to do anything themselves.

[Todd McCloud]

Mostly neutral observer here(who loves seeing Biyah squirm), I'm not sure what you mean.

I sort of stopped reading after this. You are neutral... how? You couped the region less than six months ago. You have everything to gain by sticking with an invading faction.

[Cerian Quilor]

Remember, this is supposed to be for the good of Osiris - not because we're 'not liked'.

I didn't say that I agreed with that reasoning - that's the reasoning you claimedit was, Biyah. I simply said that even if your fundamental argument was correct, your whole post didn't make any sense because it was internally inconsistent.

@Todd: At least try to look neutral. You can't call Venico, Koth or Cormac invaders when those nations have been in Osiris for as long as they have, under their ownership.

[Eluvatar]

@Todd: At least try to look neutral. You can't call Venico, Koth or Cormac invaders when those nations have been in Osiris for as long as they have, under their ownership.

The traditional definition of Invader Delegate was a delegate in power due to non-native endorsements, not a non-native in the delegacy.

Not that anybody else would be Delegate right now in the absence of foreign support...

[Severisen]

So, Elu, if defenders come in to bolster a delegate and save the region from invasion, would that mean defenders are really invaders, or at the very least invader delegate supporters?

[Frattastan II]

So, Elu, if defenders come in to bolster a delegate and save the region from invasion, would that mean defenders are really invaders, or at the very least invader delegate supporters?

Yes, according to the "traditional definition" he is referring to (griefing rules?).

[Drop Your Pants]

If you want to see what a real GCR coup is, then take a look at the defender-Francoist takeover of Lazarus, predicated on a purge of 'imperialists' who (unlike "the Empire" in Osiris) had, at that the time of the purge, done absolutely nothing to threaten the stability of government in Lazarus. The NPO instigated this chain of events, many UDL members have collaborated with the takeover and the FRA has admitted Lazarus as a new member-region. If you want to see a failure of the inter-regional community to defend GCR sovereignty, look no further than defender-Francoist complicity in Lazarus.

And yet everything Lazarus did was entirely legal by our regional Mandate at the time. And i'd also like to note you haven't a clue what your talking about when it comes to Lazarus