Chaos in Balder

[Crazy girl]

Old thread: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=151869

Since the OP of that one decided to delete his post, I'm making a new thread to discuss events in the new sinker. The drama, the chaos, the popcorn. Bring it on.

[SunRawr]

Helping him get elected is my biggest NS regret.

[Hileville]

Helping him get elected is my biggest NS regret.

I share that regret.

[White Lance]

We regret not realising the accusations were not fabrications.

***

But as raised elsewhere; does that justify the UDL in couping the region? Would this have been better handled by mod involvement? Setting aside our collective bringing down TP hats for a moment, obviously hacking an email account was completely in the wrong. Nobody is going to challenge that.

But was the UDL, and other assorted organisations, really justified in attempting a coup as a response, when there were, dare I say, better and more official ways of dealing with such an act? Was there a lack of proof or something;is that why you acted via coup?

We leaked report of the coup attempt to Lux because we believed the accusations to be fabrications, which is now proved to be untrue. Yet we also considered the choice of a coup to be an illegitimate way of resolving the issue.

The Balder VD is suggesting this was a multi-organisation action, not just UDL; happy to recognise that. Question still applies - why coup? Could moderators really not act as it wasn't an in-game offence? If no in-game offence was committed, was an in-game response justified, or should the hacked user have contacted his ISP? This is quite a thorny issue, and we aren't campaigning for a certain view here (unlike in our ceaseless efforts to unseat Krulltopia); we are interested to hear justifications and discussions on this. Please keep it civil.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

But was the UDL, and other assorted organisations, really justified in attempting a coup as a response, when there were, dare I say, better and more official ways of dealing with such an act? Was there a lack of proof or something;is that why you acted via coup?

We leaked report of the coup attempt to Lux because we believed the accusations to be fabrications, which is now proved to be untrue. Yet we also considered the choice of a coup to be an illegitimate way of resolving the issue.

The Balder VD is suggesting this was a multi-organisation action, not just UDL; happy to recognise that. Question still applies - why coup? Could moderators really not act as it wasn't an in-game offence? If no in-game offence was committed, was an in-game response justified, or should the hacked user have contacted his ISP? This is quite a thorny issue, and we aren't campaigning for a certain view here (unlike in our ceaseless efforts to unseat Krulltopia); we are interested to hear justifications and discussions on this. Please keep it civil.

Yes. They saw development in Balder that was against their interests and acted accordingly. I see no need for further justification than that.

[Fotar]

The mods could not have intervened unless my in-game account was hacked. They were watching for that. Otherwise, a coup was really the only option we could think of.

---

For those who may have missed my post on the Balder RMB regarding this situation, here it is:

1) The hacking allegations are true. My email was hacked and my accounts, both in game and on forum, were threatened to be hacked. The mods were alerted, but since no in-game offenses had occurred, they could do nothing. They have been watching closely though.

2) The attempted coup was an idea that a number of Balder members from all different backgrounds. The coup had two goals: remove Lux from power since we could not trust him and to place me in the delegate seat to secure the region. For those who may not know, I am the duly elected Vice-Delegate. Lux's actions and plans, which included hacking the root-admin forum account, were against his oath to the Convention and he forfeit his right to be delegate long before the coup was even planned.

3) I was ejected and banned from the region at the start of Lux's crackdown. I am not sure when Lux unbanned me, but I thank him for ending what he started and allowing my return and the resumption of establishing Balder.

4) UDL has been accused of a power grab. I again want to point out how false this is. Last night, when the idea of a coup was decided on, the coup was going to consist of both raiders and defenders from numerous organizations. UDL is not attempting to seize control of the region.

[White Lance]

Could it not have been done via a forum decision - you do have an off-site forum, and very pretty it is too, if a bit brown.

I think the issue here was that aside from those 'in the know', many didn't know what was going on. If the accusations had been made in an open forum (we like these, as you may have guessed from reading other posts by my group), Lux could have responded, and potentially stepped down; there could even have been a poll. What probably sent Lux into his extreme actions when he learned of the coup was that nobody had warned him or anything; if lots of nations organise something it can be quite worrying for those not informed. Obviously given Lux's response it is now hard to see a situation where he might have been removed peacefully, but it just seems a kind of shoot first, explain ones actions later can cause mistrust - like whoever that Truth nation was (not one of my group), who spun the whole thing as UDL revenge over an embassy, of all things; it demonstrates why being open and honest about ones intentions could be more effective, we would argue.

I understand a coup was a quick way of seemingly resolving the issue, particularly as the mods hands were tied, which must have been annoying for them and those wanting action. But what was to stop (and indeed is to stop, in reality) Lux from continuing to be a pain, and/or hacking further? The coup, whether as it just unfolded or as it would have done later, would presumably have driven him to anger either way, whereas a more reasoned argument might possibly have worked better. Now we'll never know.

While it's nice to see raiders and defenders working together to deal with a genuine problem (if only you'd do it against TP ), it just seems if the response had been more open a lot of problems could have been avoided.

[Frattastan]

While it's nice to see raiders and defenders working together to deal with a genuine problem (if only you'd do it against TP ), it just seems if the response had been more open a lot of problems could have been avoided.

How so? The decision to coup was triggered by a previous action by Lux (attempt to hack Fotar's accounts), so it was unavoidable and necessary.

[White Lance]

.... doesn't seem like you actually read the post, where I suggested other options. A choice to coup, in the way it was done, was far from unavoidable.

[Fotar]

You have many great points, White Lance, and in hind sight, your method may have been better.

I can only speak for myself here. This all unfolded for me right before I was getting offline for the night last night. The previous night I slept terrible, and so I was already tired. Having my email hacked put me in a slight panic of trying to change passwords to other accounts and make sure everything was secured. I honestly have to say my thoughts were more with how to keep my stuff secure and the region safe than exactly how the best way to go about it was. This doesn't excuse me for my error though...I am not trying to make an excuse.

[White Lance]

Let me just take a moment to savor someone supporting something our group said on the forums.

We can understand a hack attempt would be traumatic, and could lead you to take precipitate action, Fotar. That makes sense. The response of the rest of the players though, particularly the defender groups who usually try to act with moderation, seems to need more explaining.

[Latnob]

Let me just take a moment to savor someone supporting something our group said on the forums.

We can understand a hack attempt would be traumatic, and could lead you to take precipitate action, Fotar. That makes sense. The response of the rest of the players though, particularly the defender groups who usually try to act with moderation, seems to need more explaining.

What's there to explain? A regional government asked for assistance defending it from a possible potential tyrant, who would clearly stop at nothing.

[Fotar]

What's there to explain? A regional government asked for assistance defending it from a possible potential tyrant, who would clearly stop at nothing.

I have to agree with this. The coup was the idea of Balder members and was attempted at our request.

[White Lance]

possible potential tyrant

Emphasis 'possible potential'. At the stage when the coup was decided upon, Lux hadn't actually committed any in-game offence (and still hasn't as far as I'm aware), nor had he done anything remotely dictatorial; you can't map his response to the coup on how he would have acted to a more reasoned approach. That's the point I'm trying to make; Lux was not approached, members of the region went behind his back. If we accept Fotar's statement he was unsettled by the hack, and so made the request, fine, but is what we are thus saying that nobody fully considered other options? There was no voice of moderation from within the UDL, for example, suggesting a more peaceful attempt? If so, fine, we'll re-evaluate our opinions of the groups involved; it just seems somewhat out of character for a group led by the famously law-conscious Unibot to support this severe an action at the point it did.

[Unibot II]

Let me just take a moment to savor someone supporting something our group said on the forums.

We can understand a hack attempt would be traumatic, and could lead you to take precipitate action, Fotar. That makes sense. The response of the rest of the players though, particularly the defender groups who usually try to act with moderation, seems to need more explaining.

The "defender" group"s", included several raider groups and a task-force of neutrals that were arranged by the Committee for Public Safety in Balder -- it was a Balder-coordinated mission to take down their rogue delegate. Moderation couldn't act on Lux until he broke a rule in-game.

Just stop it, Frak/Black Pineapple/Whoever, you're embarrassing yourself:


You're not the beacon of truth, you fraternized with a known hacker and tried to help him establish a defense -- only to switch sides when Lux went erm....

[Kshrlmnt]

possible potential tyrant

Emphasis 'possible potential'. At the stage when the coup was decided upon, Lux hadn't actually committed any in-game offence (and still hasn't as far as I'm aware), nor had he done anything remotely dictatorial; you can't map his response to the coup on how he would have acted to a more reasoned approach. That's the point I'm trying to make; Lux was not approached, members of the region went behind his back. If we accept Fotar's statement he was unsettled by the hack, and so made the request, fine, but is what we are thus saying that nobody fully considered other options? There was no voice of moderation from within the UDL, for example, suggesting a more peaceful attempt? If so, fine, we'll re-evaluate our opinions of the groups involved; it just seems somewhat out of character for a group led by the famously law-conscious Unibot to support this severe an action at the point it did.

In-game responses to off-site offenses certainly aren't unheard of. Condemnations, raids, sometimes burns. *shrug* It's part of the game, for better or worse.

[Canalk]

Breaking News

The Foreign Observer



Coup in Balder


Luxembourg removed from delegate's position

Just a matter of days following the attempted coup in Osiris, neighbouring Sinker, Balder, is now in a crises of its own, and it appears that that the delegate has been removed. Luxembourg, whom was elected last month as Balder's first delegate (by a landslide) has ceased to be WA delegate through means of a successful coup and now the sinker sits without a delegate. In place is an announcement stating that Fotar, vice delegate, is to assume Luxembourg's position, and that this was apparently a successful coup carried out by afew native Balderians themselves. Fotar, who was vice delegate prior and apparent leader of this coup, made the announcement in the forums that Luxembourg had been banned from the Balderian forums and has been removed as delegate of the region. Fotar also stated that his email and account was hacked into both in the game and on the forum, confirming what Luxembourg had stated earlier (whether this was at the time Unibot controlled his nation or not is unconfirmed). How this issue was resolved, no exact details were put forward, but we’ll assume that Fotar successfully recovered his nation and forum controls as he'd claim and details should come in of this incident within time to come. Fotar states that Luxembourg had committed a regional crime before this coup even occurred through hacking into the root admin of the Balder forum and in turn lost his right to hold the position of delegate in Balder. In what was a strange set of events following, Fotar stated that he was ejected and banned from Balder by Luxembourg and then was unbanned shortly after by [nation]Luxembourg[nation] himself. Luxembourg also resigned from the world assembly and in turn his delegate’s position.

There are a number of conflicting statements and accusations going around particularly in the RMB and on the forums and it may take sometime before the exact events are made clear. Fotar, current vice delegate, had announced that Luxembourg has been banned from the forums and efforts are being made following the successful coupe to restore some normality to the region. There are still concerns regardling the legitimacy of the coup and whether Balderian citizens were properly informed about it and at this moment their concerns are being addressed by Balderian officials.

Update

Unibot had confirmed that Luxembourg passed the controls of his account to him and now he lays control over balder. Unibot is calling for all WA nations to endorse Fotar and that new elections for vice delegate should be started soon.

Luxembourg earlier stated in the RMB that his core nation is Aglrinia and that he has been on nationstates since 2009. We’re not sure as to the relevance of this information, but it may become significant later on.

The coup was successfully carried out by Balderian members with both the defender and raider backrounds

References:

Announcement that Luxembourg is banned from the Balderian forum (you need to be logged in):
http://s11.zetaboards.com/Balder/index/

Statement from Fotar:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=151890

Source:
http://z3.invisionfree.invalid.com/Caprecian_co ... wforum=196

The Caprecian Chronicle is a private and independent newspaper. The views expressed are not necessarily directly or officially linked to those of public officials or private citizens. If you have concerns about the honesty and integrity of the newspaper, please email a telegram to Canalk or alternatively go to the link below to voice out your concerns:
http://z3.invisionfree.invalid.com/Caprecian_co ... wforum=196

[Swkoll]

Sends to Balder.

[Mahaj]

Aglrinia?

[White Lance]

Uni, that's entirely unfair. You've taken one side of a conversation and missed the CRUCIAL response by Lux. The conversation went like this.

WL: Did you try to hack a game account?
Lux: No.
WL: Then I'd suggest you deny it on the RMB if you are telling the truth; that's a serious offence that can lead to account deletion.

I have the no telegram saved, so you can check the timings and everything. If I could make print screen work, I'd attach it here. If you want me to set up a photobucket account to prove it, I'd be more than willing.

So don't accuse me of something that is absolutely untrue. I asked him if the accusations were true and he DENIED them; only later was I convinced he was genuinely a hacker.

I would appreciate an apology. Also, a suggeston of how you managed to screenshot that post into the thread, so I can post mine in response, you will see the times match up.

[Canalk]

Aglrinia?

yea... if you check the RMB history.

Not sure if it's relevant.... but h stated his real name is aglrinia... I think this was before unibot took control of his nation.

[White Lance]

Screenshotted proof of what Lux said to me, just taken - the times match up. If you want to ask Sedge when he sent me the other message you are more than welcome to



An apology would be most appreciated. We do NOT support people who support criminal activity. If you still don't believe me I would ask you to consult the mods.

[Nafistan]

Aglrinia is the nation that wrecked havoc in The Commonwealth Society. He made loads of puppets and stirred up trouble. He split the region in two, unseated a Delegate, but then supposedly 'left' the game.

[Lordieth]

Several months ago, Aglrinia tried a takeover in The South using a multitude of puppets masking as individual players, as well as posing as a fake intelligence organisation region known as NS-IRSA, which he used by faking his intel by providing information on his own multiple identities. I gathered enough information from RMB activity, login times and other players who have had dealings with Aglrinia and his puppets to expose what I can only assume was an attempt to takeover the region at our delegate election.

Aglrinia even faked handing over the nation a month or so ago in a puppet give-away in Gameplay. Aglrinia coincidentally made a short stay in The South a few weeks ago despite claiming the nation was being controlled by a new player, the evidence of which never surfaced in the puppet give-away thread.

[Frattastan]

Weird guy.

He went from threatening to coup my region to sending friendly telegrams like nothing had happened