NationStates

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:01 pm**

Perspectives: A sinking feeling

With the new sinkers recently created, large debates have been going on, particularly in Osiris, which saw both sides accusing the other side of invading. TITO claims some invaders tried to grab the region, while invaders claim TITO invaded the region.

Which raises the question: can you really invade an empty region? Does a newly created game region even have natives, or is this simply a case of new uncharted land, ready for anyone to grab?

Who are the natives of these new sinkers? There's the nations that are revived there and stay there, many of them puppets of those curious about the new toy. There's the nations moving in there, claiming to have the intent to make it their new home, though of course intent is hard to judge - anyone can lie, anyone could tell the truth, and none of us are mind readers or fortune tellers.

This also raises the question as to whether any game created region truly has natives, and if so, how they would be defined. Are the large number of nations just sitting there the natives? The group controlling the forum and delegacy? Or does a game created region belong to everyone in the game?

We can even continue by asking ourselves if an empty UCR can be invaded, or one with only defender/invader puppets sitting in it, and no real natives left. The same applies to defending - if there are no natives, are you really defending? Is it simply two forces invading against each other? Or just a matter of grabbing land?

Many questions, and with probably just as many answers, if not more.

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:08 pm**

New sinker=nothing there to defend.

And I say again--raiders don't just raid. They build regions, too. A raider's involvement does not a raid make.

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:19 pm**

Ow, no, stop it, with the poking, Crazy Girl, stop --- just, but, I don't want to --- argh, fine!

As I see it, the intent of defending, and at least part of the reason I've switched sides, is to prevent communities from being disrupted by invasion. There was no community to defend in Osiris, not precisely, so TITO's actions can't really be considered a defence. In the same way, there was no community to invade or disrupt, so their actions, and the actions of other people trying to take control of the new territory, cannot really be considered an invasion either. It was just two differently-aligned sides trying to take control of the new toy.

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:30 pm**

Oliver the Mediocre wrote:Ow, no, stop it, with the poking, Crazy Girl, stop --- just, but, I don't want to --- argh, fine!

As I see it, the intent of defending, and at least part of the reason I've switched sides, is to prevent communities from being disrupted by invasion. There was no community to defend in Osiris, not precisely, so TITO's actions can't really be considered a defence. In the same way, there was no community to invade or disrupt, so their actions, and the actions of other people trying to take control of the new territory, cannot really be considered an invasion either. It was just two differently-aligned sides trying to take control of the new toy.

Raiding isn't necessarily the organized disruption of a community; technically, if the coerced attainment of the delegacy in a region. If TITO gained the delegacy with an intention other than defending, it is de facto raiding.

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:32 pm**

Sure raiders don't just raid! Just pointing out an election was held that was open to anyone that wanted to take part. Including raiders.

I feel bad for Balder. It was just as important but is overlooked.

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:10 pm**

Connopolis wrote:
Oliver the Mediocre wrote:Ow, no, stop it, with the poking, Crazy Girl, stop --- just, but, I don't want to --- argh, fine!

As I see it, the intent of defending, and at least part of the reason I've switched sides, is to prevent communities from being disrupted by invasion. There was no community to defend in Osiris, not precisely, so TITO's actions can't really be considered a defence. In the same way, there was no community to invade or disrupt, so their actions, and the actions of other people trying to take control of the new territory, cannot really be considered an invasion either. It was just two differently-aligned sides trying to take control of the new toy.

Raiding isn't necessarily the organized disruption of a community; technically, if the coerced attainment of the delegacy in a region. If TITO gained the delegacy with an intention other than defending, it is de facto raiding.

Now you're getting into the intent, and that's a funny thing. Do you have any doubt that TITO believed they were defending the region and its interests? I don't. I disagree that it was needed, but you can't say that they didn't intend to defend it. This sounds a bit like twisting things about because you don't like TITO.

I'm not the biggest of theirs either, but there was nothing there to disrupt, nothing there to invade. It was empty space and people tried to occupy it.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:21 pm**

Kshrlmnt wrote:New sinker=nothing there to defend.

I think the argument was that they were defending for the region's future natives (pre-emptively defending?), so that it'd have a delegate/forum admins who'd look after the to-be natives. It's an interesting one - not something that I remember arising before in NS.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:26 pm**

Sedgistan wrote:
Kshrlmnt wrote:New sinker=nothing there to defend.

I think the argument was that they were defending for the region's future natives (pre-emptively defending?), so that it'd have a delegate/forum admins who'd look after the to-be natives. It's an interesting one - not something that I remember arising before in NS.

I remember it before. It was argued that a RL-nation named region .. even if it has no natives.. should be defended and kept safe for future natives due to the region's name and the fact that there is probably going to be a.. for example.. Brazilian who wants to settle in Brazil. In fact many of the people who have come to me in recent months about Brazil weren't natives of Brazil when the region was originally taken over by Macedon, they're Brazilians who want to be natives.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:46 pm**

Preemptive defending is invading.

I don't say that to be bitter or anything else. Simply put, I think defending is one of the most boring things that happens in NS, its reactionary, its predictable, and it preserves the status quo. This was something different, TITO grabbed this delegacy to get rid of the raider influences in Osiris. While not as over the line as the RLA, it really goes to show that the traditional TITO goal, to defeat raiders regardless of cost. There is a TITO agenda that they have been enforcing with their military, and this is one example of it. I think it has more in common with 'imperialist' regions than anything else, but due to their size they can operate by themselves.

I would argue TITO's actions in Osiris is the most interesting thing the region has ever done and shows a shift in TITO's style of game play.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:47 pm**

Unibot II wrote:
Sedgistan wrote:I think the argument was that they were defending for the region's future natives (pre-emptively defending?), so that it'd have a delegate/forum admins who'd look after the to-be natives. It's an interesting one - not something that I remember arising before in NS.

I remember it before. It was argued that a RL-nation named region .. even if it has no natives.. should be defended and kept safe for future natives due to the region's name and the fact that there is probably going to be a.. for example.. Brazilian who wants to settle in Brazil. In fact many of the people who have come to me in recent months about Brazil weren't natives of Brazil when the region was originally taken over by Macedon, they're Brazilians who want to be natives.

Jeez, I must be getting soft. I can absolutely understand the intent of the protection of the RL-nation-themed regions, and I actually support that. Osiris and Balder, though, were completely whole-cloth creations and had no natives as of yet. I personally put my support behind the people I thought most likely to defend the region in that way; to create a community and build protections for the nations which would be natives in the coming months. Fortunately he won the election. I don't think that TITO-as-organization had any real right to a stake in Osiris.. but each of their nations did. I think the defence was a bit of a misnomer, and that rather than treating with the rest of us as equals interested in the growth and development of Osiris, they came in and imposed order. I have no doubt they believed what they were doing was right, I just don't think the manner in which it was done was necessary.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:49 pm**

Improving Wordiness wrote:Sure raiders don't just raid! Just pointing out an election was held that was open to anyone that wanted to take part. Including raiders.

I feel bad for Balder. It was just as important but is overlooked.

If overlooked means not having TITO take the region and having elections right away, then I'm feeling pretty good about it being overlooked

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:29 pm**

Sedgistan wrote:
Kshrlmnt wrote:New sinker=nothing there to defend.

I think the argument was that they were defending for the region's future natives (pre-emptively defending?), so that it'd have a delegate/forum admins who'd look after the to-be natives. It's an interesting one - not something that I remember arising before in NS.

As the region had no natives, I'd call it defending a region from the natives. A worthy goal. :roll:

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:06 pm**

Kshrlmnt wrote:
Sedgistan wrote:I think the argument was that they were defending for the region's future natives (pre-emptively defending?), so that it'd have a delegate/forum admins who'd look after the to-be natives. It's an interesting one - not something that I remember arising before in NS.

As the region had no natives, I'd call it defending a region from the natives. A worthy goal.

I look at as first come, first serve now. They didn't like the fact 'raiders' got there first, so they barged in and took it for themselves.

NationStates

[NSNS] Perspectives: A sinking feeling

[NSNS] Perspectives: A sinking feeling