NationStates

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:01 pm**

The NAZI EUROPE Project: Part 1

The "Overview" thread may be discarded now. Debate and discussion will move here.

If you are confused as to what is going on, I recommend you follow the link above and read the beginning of the Overview thread, or read what is in the spoiler at the bottom of this post.

Thank you.

The World Assembly,

UNDERSTANDING that, during this particular resolution's time at vote, there is already another WASC condemnation of NAZI EUROPE in effect, however recognizing that there has been an ongoing and massive controversy sparked over the other condemnation's denouncement of an ideology and lack of relevance to the region of NE itself and seeking to end said controversy by replacing the other condemnation with a proper piece of WASC legislation,

RECOGNIZING NAZI EUROPE as a region with a history loaded with particularly heinous acts of hostility and intolerance,

NOTING that NAZI EUROPE has initiated the invasion and destruction of numerous regions and tends to target regions with a predominant Communist ideology,

FURTHER NOTING that some of these regions, as a result of NAZI EUROPE's detrimental involvement in their affairs, have been utterly annihilated, and recognizing some of said demolished regions as:
• The "Alliance of bolshevik states," which, according to its world factbook entry after it was invaded, was "taken from the communists by Nazi Europe,"
• "Nazi Rehab," the WFE of which, after a foreign invasion, read similarly to the WFE of the Alliance of bolshevik states: "another Communist hell-hole bites the dust courtesy of Nazi Europe,"
• "Anarchy and Socialist Utopia," which was invaded in late July of 2009 by invaders from Nazi Europe who succeeded in ejecting all the native nations from the region and, despite the revival of the region's founder nation and the dispersal of the NE invaders, evidently succeeded in causing enough lasting damage to the region to bring about its ultimate demise,

DISFAVORING the acts of inhospitality and intolerance made by nations of NAZI EUROPE towards their own subjects and towards other nations in the world, and recognizing some of these acts as:
• The hostility expressed by the representative from [nation=short+noflag]Laos Refugees[/nation] when he is communicating with the representatives of other nations in the World Assembly forums,
• The deplorable behavior of the representative from Laos Refugees during multiple international summit meetings which has caused said formerly calm and controlled meetings to crumble into heated, hostile arguments between groups of national representatives,
• The attempted provocation of Communist nations by the government Laos Refugees, which sought war with said Communist nations,
• The attempt of the former delegate of NAZI EUROPE, [nation=short+noflag]Oh My Days[/nation], to liberate the isolationist region "Haven," which resulted in significant, long-term confusion in the WASC and the inspiration of multiple members of Haven to blacken their reputations in a petulant retaliation against the World Assembly and against the allied regions of NAZI EUROPE (in the form of invasions),
• An absurd declaration of war by former nation "The New Aryan People," which stated that all of NAZI EUROPE was to band together against the World Assembly and destroy it,

BELIEVING these actions to be especially abominable and to be in utter opposition of the WASC's goal of spreading interregional peace and goodwill,

HEREBY CONDEMNS NAZI EUROPE.

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:25 pm**

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:28 pm**

Vici Minerva wrote:>:(

Sorry.

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:35 pm**

..... Mmhmmm

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:39 pm**

This is honestly the saddest thing I've seen from the SC in a while. I'm so disheartened. I could get it to vote because this resolution is such bull shit. It's based on things they did in the past and couldn't fathom the activity to do again if they wanted to. AMOM, I'm glad you think you've solved this because you've only made it unsolvable. You've taken a resolution condemning them for thinking a certain way, and replacing it with one that condemns them for thinking the same way but lying and claiming it is for actions they did in the distant past and don't have near the activity to repeat if they even wanted to. It's the biggest cop out I've ever seen. If the SC can't even get this accomplished without only pretending to there's no point.

Liberate Eastern Europe was a good resolution to end on, I'll never write another one. The Security Council is a giant waste of time. (And this is only the last straw in this decision. Rule IV and losing Sedge to the darkside played bigger roles.)

I've enjoyed the friends I've made here. I've enjoyed the enemies I've made here. AMOM, I still love you, you've just demonstrated to me everything I've thought was wrong with this body, and I plan on continuing our friendship outside this useless body despite our disagreement over this.

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:43 pm**

Question Mr. Mean old man, is it not true you've also put a repeal to this condemnation into action as well?

Wondering if you could clarify.

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:53 pm**

New Adonia wrote:Question Mr. Mean old man, is it not true you've also put a repeal to this condemnation into action as well?

Wondering if you could clarify.

Nay; I've submitted a repeal to WASC resolution #3, which condemned NAZI EUROPE simply for its Nazi ideology and had little to do with the history of the region itself. You see, there is already a resolution in effect that condemns NAZI EUROPE, which I can say with confidence is the most controversial resolution that the WASC has ever seen and has already seen 5 failed repeal attempts; I seek to destroy it here and now with these two resolutions, while keeping NE condemned.

It isn't pretty, but it finally gets the job done.

...and I am still replying to your post, Topid.

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:06 pm**

Topid wrote:This is honestly the saddest thing I've seen from the SC in a while. I'm so disheartened. I could get it to vote because this resolution is such bull shit. It's based on things they did in the past and couldn't fathom the activity to do again if they wanted to. AMOM, I'm glad you think you've solved this because you've only made it unsolvable. You've taken a resolution condemning them for thinking a certain way, and replacing it with one that condemns them for thinking the same way but lying and claiming it is for actions they did in the distant past and don't have near the activity to repeat if they even wanted to. It's the biggest cop out I've ever seen. If the SC can't even get this accomplished without only pretending to there's no point.

They can't fathom doing these things again because NAZI EUROPE has fallen apart. It is possible that the constant public humiliation brought about by repeal after failed repeal helped do that to them. It is possible that their harboring of the Nazi ideology turned people away from them and provided them new enemies. NAZI EUROPE is not the same menace it used to be because it has been neutered, not because it has neutered itself.

But, like I said, the world's destruction of NAZI EUROPE has not changed the region's history, and all of the points I have brought up in my replacement legislation have been valid and relevant.

Where does it say it condemns them for thinking the same way? Under the resolution's surface in a spot that only you can find?

You seem to be fighting a war against a badge, Topid. Perhaps you are fighting a war against yourself for starting this. Like I said; this is the closest we're ever getting to ending this conflict. If it means no more repeals, then so be it. However, it will always mean an unpleasant feeling towards Nazism among the WA members of the world, and that is not ever going to change. At least we can see some peace for once.

You've completely deluded yourself if you somehow believe that people will throw away their disgust with the word "Nazi" and vote as if they've never heard it before. Because they have. And they hate it. You know that just as well as I do.

Topid, these are harsh measures. I'm well aware of that. But because they are harsh, does not mean they do not solve the problem. The WA is obviously not going to allow NE to go without a condemnation; five failed repeal attempts over the course of the past year have shown us that.

But the SC can clear its records as much as it really can with this last measure. No condemnation of an ideology, a repeal that denounces doing so ... this is our best hope. And I have faith in it.

Stop battling yourself, Topid. Let it go. I'm finishing this for you.

Liberate Eastern Europe was a good resolution to end on, I'll never write another one. The Security Council is a giant waste of time. (And this is only the last straw in this decision. Rule IV and losing Sedge to the darkside played bigger roles.)

I've enjoyed the friends I've made here. I've enjoyed the enemies I've made here. AMOM, I still love you, you've just demonstrated to me everything I've thought was wrong with this body, and I plan on continuing our friendship outside this useless body despite our disagreement over this.

Alright, Topid. Your choice is your choice.

I'll see you around.

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:20 pm**

Harsh measures that weren't needed. We almost had it the time I tried it, off by a few votes. I learned from many of the mistakes I made that time. If another serious effort was made it probably would have worked on its own.

Where does it say it condemns them for thinking the same way? Under the resolution's surface in a spot that only you can find?

It doesn't. But you know damn well that's why we are here. TITO and the other less reasonable forces at play continually said 'they has to pai 4 how they thunk' and you're trying to give them that without them having to work or think to defend it. You're making it far easier to go about SC affairs without thinking by putting up fake reasons and sound bites they can stand behind to defend their illogical hate more logically.

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:41 pm**

I'm voting for both the new condemnation and #3's repeal. #3 is totally pointless, and now there's a good replacement.

If you can get Just Guy to support this AMOM, then it's as good as passed.

Topid, it doesn't really matter when NE committed those acts. History is history. Look at Great Nepal - he's changed (according to those he knows), but his condemnation's not going either. Karma is tough.

And AMOM, just by the way, what are your thoughts on The Greater German Reich, them basically being NE's successor?

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:49 pm**

Topid wrote:Harsh measures that weren't needed. We almost had it the time I tried it, off by a few votes. I learned from many of the mistakes I made that time. If another serious effort was made it probably would have worked on its own.

"A few" being five hundred.

A repeal that isn't compensated just won't pass. When it does, I can just imagine what kind of resolution would show up in the queue next condemning NE because of Nazism. We could be worse off than before.

Voters will vote the way they always do. That doesn't mean that we have to let the text of WASC#3 poison the halls of the WA forever. The most we can do here is change the text and change the WASC's position.

I know where you're coming from. Though when I think about it, I think a lot has changed that you don't recognize. Of course, many people are going to vote for these measures because they dislike Nazism, however the votes of those people will be combined with the votes of the members of 10kI and the members of other regions with which I have communicated, who are interested in resolving this conflict and want to release the SC from it and escape from it themselves.

It's not all about hating Nazism any more, Topid. As you saw, there's a large group of people who support your position on the ideology condemnation issue. NE, though, not only through its Nazism, has acquired a poor reputation, and a replacement condemnation which addresses its faults must be passed if we are to see the back of SC#3.

Where does it say it condemns them for thinking the same way? Under the resolution's surface in a spot that only you can find?
It doesn't. But you know damn well that's why we are here. TITO and the other less reasonable forces at play continually said 'they has to pai 4 how they thunk' and you're trying to give them that without them having to work or think to defend it. You're making it far easier to go about SC affairs without thinking by putting up fake reasons and sound bites they can stand behind to defend their illogical hate more logically.

"TITO and the other less reasonable forces at play" are almost everyone but you and NE. There has been little opposition voiced to this resolution so far out of all the people I have spoken with, Topid. I've gone to a lot of regions and talked to a lot of people about it. Don't accuse TITO of crimes that they have not committed; the members of 10kI made the right choice here, and are interested in ending this conflict, not defending "illogical hate."

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:52 pm**

In the end, we disagree on the problem. The text wasn't what poisoned these halls, the hate was. The hate is permanent now. And the hater is being treated like a hero for having the decency to lie about his hatred.

And those five hundred were lemmings. There was a point where they were within twenty or so. Had I had one other moderate delegate vote early on I would have passed it. It just came down to who was online and who wasn't.

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:24 pm**

Melodrama aside, this appears to be a reasonable way of carrying out the plan to remove that hideous, incorrectly made SC #3.

With this in place, SC #3 can be removed, Nazi haters can feel safe from having a non-condemned NE, and we can move on to other things in the SC.

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:37 pm**

perhaps if you and NE teamed up on resolutions to liberate the regions mentioned another solution would have more power behind it?

Posted: **Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:47 pm**

Metania wrote:Melodrama aside ...

Tharry.

Posted: **Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:10 am**

Topid wrote:This is honestly the saddest thing I've seen from the SC in a while. I'm so disheartened. I could get it to vote because this resolution is such bull shit. It's based on things they did in the past and couldn't fathom the activity to do again if they wanted to. AMOM, I'm glad you think you've solved this because you've only made it unsolvable. You've taken a resolution condemning them for thinking a certain way, and replacing it with one that condemns them for thinking the same way but lying and claiming it is for actions they did in the distant past and don't have near the activity to repeat if they even wanted to. It's the biggest cop out I've ever seen. If the SC can't even get this accomplished without only pretending to there's no point.

Liberate Eastern Europe was a good resolution to end on, I'll never write another one. The Security Council is a giant waste of time. (And this is only the last straw in this decision. Rule IV and losing Sedge to the darkside played bigger roles.)

I've enjoyed the friends I've made here. I've enjoyed the enemies I've made here. AMOM, I still love you, you've just demonstrated to me everything I've thought was wrong with this body, and I plan on continuing our friendship outside this useless body despite our disagreement over this.

I would say 'losing' Sedge to the dark-side is one of the best things that has happened to the Security Council, *cough* I mean that jokingly and practically.

Anyway, to address your point, Topid, I don't think that NAZI EUROPE has 'changed' its ways because it suddenly has turned over a new moral leaf, it's not committing these acts anymore because it simply doesn't have the activity anymore -- you said this yourself. Time does eventually heal all wounds, but punishment is not simply averted with a biological incapacitation (except death) that prevents them from committing the acts in the future -- if the only purpose of punishment was suppression, then yes, you would be correct. However, in the real world, if a person commits a crime, even if they couldn't possibly do it again (ex. a one-armed pickpocket loses his last remaining hand in an unfortunate bear trap hidden in his someone's coat), they're going to go jail and do their time.

Posted: **Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:29 am**

BEfore I vote on this, i note that none of the activities in AMOM's resolution are datestamped. Can I ask

NOTING that NAZI EUROPE has initiated the invasion and destruction of numerous regions and tends to target regions with a predominant Communist ideology,
FURTHER NOTING that some of these regions, as a result of NAZI EUROPE's detrimental involvement in their affairs, have been utterly annihilated, and recognizing some of said demolished regions as:

When? Are we talking last week or a year ago? The only date I can find in the resolution is 18 months ago.

Posted: **Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:57 am**

My concern is quite different: if we approve this resolution, who's to say the opponents of the repeal will keep their end of the bargain and actually repeal SC#3?

Ballotonia

Posted: **Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:36 am**

Well, AMOM's going to be pissed at me if I do, that's for sure.

Posted: **Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:02 am**

My concern is quite different: if we approve this resolution, who's to say the opponents of the repeal will keep their end of the bargain and actually repeal SC#3?

Just out of curiosity, what bargain? At no time have i given any assurances at all concerning my current or future intentions, nor have I expressed my dissatisfaction with SC#3.

A bargain requires the agreement of two parties, not one party going ahead on the assumption that the other will fall into line.

Posted: **Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:09 am**

Because the current condemnation of NAZI EUROPE is still in effect, I see that this resolution is against WA rules. One cannot simply replace an old law with a new law without first making the old law null and void. I will vote against this, and push for my region to do so as well to the best of my ability. Bring this back when the standing one is repealed, and I will vote for it.

Posted: **Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:43 am**

You can have two condemnations/commendations at once; this has been confirmed by the mods.

Flem: I don't think Ballotonia was referring to you.

Posted: **Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:46 am**

Because the current condemnation of NAZI EUROPE is still in effect, I see that this resolution is against WA rules. One cannot simply replace an old law with a new law without first making the old law null and void. I will vote against this, and push for my region to do so as well to the best of my ability. Bring this back when the standing one is repealed, and I will vote for it.

That is a good point.

on reflection, although this is an expedient resolution for some, I think it violates the following WA rule:

Duplication

If the majority of your Proposal is covered by an existing Resolution, your Proposal is toast. We've got enough of these things already, we don't need to double up (i.e. the WA has already banned landmines, we don't need to do it again). As an aside, since the WA has already banned biological weapons, you don't need to include it in your Proposal to ban nuclear and chemical ones. (see: House of Cards)

Although the basis of the condemnation is changed, the substantive point is already made in SC#3 - NAzi Europe is condemned.

Posted: **Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:51 am**

No, it most definitely isn't.

Posted: **Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:51 am**

Flemingovia wrote:
Because the current condemnation of NAZI EUROPE is still in effect, I see that this resolution is against WA rules. One cannot simply replace an old law with a new law without first making the old law null and void. I will vote against this, and push for my region to do so as well to the best of my ability. Bring this back when the standing one is repealed, and I will vote for it.

That is a good point.

No, mods have said one can have more than one badge at a time so well if its passes then perhaps it will make a history..

NationStates

PASSED: Condemn NAZI EUROPE (TNEP - Part 1)

PASSED: Condemn NAZI EUROPE (TNEP - Part 1)