[PASSED] Commend Sedgistan

[Murray the Evil Skull]

An rather EVIL looking skull sat on a barstool, beside him was a side table with a large container of Fine Yeldan Popcorn(TM). THe skull's eyes glow a malevolent red as it speaks.

"Congratutions Mortals, this debate warms the very cockles of my blackened heart. It seems at times both raiders and defenders can be equally contemptable. Some of this discussion with its allegations, flame-baiting, and outright sarcasm has been facinating to watch. Please do continue, I haven't had this much fun since I was a boy scout leader."

[Govindia]

This is ridiculous.

Sedge has done nothing noteworthy to deserve commendation as opposed to other more notable defenders.

He is not deserving of a commendation.

Why? Because he acts with such arrogance and disrespect towards fellow defenders, and an arse, only rivalled by that of Falconias.

He doesn't learn to cooperate with defenders he doesn't like in a professional manner, which is what a true defender is supposed to do, and there were many others notably involved with the liberation of Feudal Japan, not just him alone.

Sedge puts a stain upon the honour of defenders who act in a respectful and humble manner, even to the invaders they fight with. Sedge has no sense of honour, civility, and respect. Anyone whom he doesn't like, he attacks their character and refuses to work with them even if they are a fellow defender. That is not what the defender creed states. If you're a defender, you either work with all defenders or you don't defend, PERIOD.

Sorry, I'm AGAINST this bloody rubbish.

[Oh my Days]

This is ridiculous.

Sedge has done nothing noteworthy to deserve commendation as opposed to other more notable defenders.

He is not deserving of a commendation.

Why? Because he acts with such arrogance and disrespect towards fellow defenders, and an arse, only rivalled by that of Falconias.

He doesn't learn to cooperate with defenders he doesn't like in a professional manner, which is what a true defender is supposed to do, and there were many others notably involved with the liberation of Feudal Japan, not just him alone.

Sedge puts a stain upon the honour of defenders who act in a respectful and humble manner, even to the invaders they fight with. Sedge has no sense of honour, civility, and respect. Anyone whom he doesn't like, he attacks their character and refuses to work with them even if they are a fellow defender. That is not what the defender creed states. If you're a defender, you either work with all defenders or you don't defend, PERIOD.

Sorry, I'm AGAINST this bloody rubbish.

Most of what you said could be alleged against anybody, what evidence do you have of this behaviour?

[Govindia]

I have not seen him respectful towards defenders he does not like, especially me.

He went and personally decided to interfere in regional business that was not the FRA's concern and decided to instigate a character attack against me because he personally disliked me.

He's not a true defender, he's only in it for self gratification. If he was a defender he would learn to work with everyone, including those he doesn't like for whatever reason. That means showing respect, courtesy, civility, and professionalism. If he can't do that he doesn't deserve to be head of the FRA or a defender at all.

Other people have described him as an arse as well, not just myself.

[Tobistus]

Being in the remarkably islotated (dead) region of Central Europe, Tobistus' dealings with outer-regional, political atmospheres is nil to none. And so, without enough knowledge on the merits mentioned, Tobistus must ABSTAIN from voting and remain UNDECIDED.

However, I will give a verbal commendation to a warrior who willingly defended a region which was not his homeland.

[Cocodian]

I have not seen him respectful towards defenders he does not like, especially me.

He went and personally decided to interfere in regional business that was not the FRA's concern and decided to instigate a character attack against me because he personally disliked me.

He's not a true defender, he's only in it for self gratification. If he was a defender he would learn to work with everyone, including those he doesn't like for whatever reason. That means showing respect, courtesy, civility, and professionalism. If he can't do that he doesn't deserve to be head of the FRA or a defender at all.

Other people have described him as an arse as well, not just myself.

I would like to challenge you to name another person who has done so, because I cannot think if a single one. With all due respect you are slightly biased in your opinion of Sedge and I know you will just say that I am naturally biased for him, but the fact that he has amassed 200+ points shows that he is a true defender...in my experience you don't stick to a single direction in a game for three years plus that you are not a true defender.

I don't believe that anyone can argue that he is not a true defender...I believe that even the staunchest of raiders would say so, actually.

[Reseda Island]

sedg is in a group of defenders who often talk down to someone who has been raider/invader simply based on the fact that they were, for instance I retired after the universe but does he let it go, nope.

[A mean old man]

He has talked down to me on more than a few occasions; however, I do not deny his accomplishments simply because of his attitude. Sure, I remember a few things he's said to me and about me and feel a bit resentful. That doesn't cancel out everything else he's done, though.

By not being able to look outside yourself you're dropping to the level which you so heartily condemn. Yeah, Sedge is perfectly capable of being cocky and obnoxious. Then again, so am I.

I have nothing against the idea of commending Sedge, however I would like for this motion to be defeated or repealed if it passes (preferably in a fashion that avoided accusations... actually, if the authors of this could agree to the repeal and agree to do another drafting in these forums, then put some time into it while considering the opinions of those here who would like to participate, that would be the best situation - though that might be a pipe dream). Most of you can figure out why from my previous posts. Unibot and I have had a chat and I believe he has a better understanding of my feelings towards this now, as well.

I'd be happy to work out a friendly repeal on this one with the authors and in these forums - note the word friendly. Nothing like my last... well, you get my point. That one wasn't pulled together with discretion in mind.

[Govindia]

I have not seen him respectful towards defenders he does not like, especially me.

He went and personally decided to interfere in regional business that was not the FRA's concern and decided to instigate a character attack against me because he personally disliked me.

He's not a true defender, he's only in it for self gratification. If he was a defender he would learn to work with everyone, including those he doesn't like for whatever reason. That means showing respect, courtesy, civility, and professionalism. If he can't do that he doesn't deserve to be head of the FRA or a defender at all.

Other people have described him as an arse as well, not just myself.

I would like to challenge you to name another person who has done so, because I cannot think if a single one. With all due respect you are slightly biased in your opinion of Sedge and I know you will just say that I am naturally biased for him, but the fact that he has amassed 200+ points shows that he is a true defender...in my experience you don't stick to a single direction in a game for three years plus that you are not a true defender.

I don't believe that anyone can argue that he is not a true defender...I believe that even the staunchest of raiders would say so, actually.

200+ points from where? The FRA? Please.

As the post below you describes, he talks down to raiders without showing and sense of respect or humility in the game. Complete failure of something he should have known about when he was young: good sportsmanship.

I don't say he is a true defender because he only works with people he likes. If he doesn't like you, even as a defender, he will not work with you, which is completely unprofessional as FRA Arch Chancellor and uncivil. If he had any sense of humanity or humility, he would work with EVERY DEFENDER, both who he DOES LIKE and DOES NOT LIKE, and work with them and show proper respect and civility towards them. If he can't even learn these basic concepts of human civil behaviour he doesn't have any right to be a defender, much less be in the I-D game.

And people in the region of Hampshire have even disliked him for his behaviour. He acts like an arse and is completely uncivil and talks down to people without showing any respect. This resolution only would legitimise his inappropriate and unethical behaviour.

Sorry Cocodian but there have been better and more respected defenders in this game. Sedge is not, and nor will ever be, one of them.

[Whamabama]

Gov, you say he isn't a true defender because he refuses to work with people he dislikes? Are you kidding me? Are you really this dense?

You claim that the defender creed has something to do with working with everybody? Are you nuts? How many defenders have banned you from working with them again?

He won't work with you the same reason we all won't work with you. You can't be trusted, or relied upon to be professional.

If anyone doubts my words about Gov, perhaps you should ask him yourself, how many defender armies have told him no, outright banned him, kicked him out ect.

Hell ask him how many regions he has been banned from. How many IRC channels has he been banned from?

Need I say more?

[Topid]

Gov, you say he isn't a true defender because he refuses to work with people he dislikes? Are you kidding me? Are you really this dense?

You claim that the defender creed has something to do with working with everybody? Are you nuts? How many defenders have banned you from working with them again?

He won't work with you the same reason we all won't work with you. You can't be trusted, or relied upon to be professional.

If anyone doubts my words about Gov, perhaps you should ask him yourself, how many defender armies have told him no, outright banned him, kicked him out ect.

Hell ask him how many regions he has been banned from. How many IRC channels has he been banned from?

Need I say more?

Oh he's the Gov that is banned from everything? Anyone care to share with me what happened, even if it has to be through TG?

[Savaer]

I'm bored, and elected to bother saying something, although given my hardline notions, some of it may be surprising...

First: Nivogal. Personal grievances shouldn't be included in a vote of fact. While, yes, your vote is largely based on opinion, the commendation present isn't notably praising his attitude. Only what he has done in his FRA career.

Second: While I personally think Sedge is an arrogant, presumptuous mule on the SCR forum that throws the word 'griefer' around like candy, I can state I have had, to my recollection, no disfavorable contact on the gamemap. That is to say, being a raider, I haven't had the issue of him acting like a grievous jackass beyond propagating the FRA press release attempting to humiliate me.

Do I like Sedge? Not exactly. But my reasoning is for several factors: Overwhoring the SCR liberations on raids that had plenty of time to organize a physical liberation attempt; attitude in the SCR of acting like a self-righteous pig; accusations of griefing when there are far worse things other regions have done; and lastly: The name's just bleh.

Do I feel he has not contributed to the D side of the game? Yes. He has.
As a raider, I can attest he's been a suitable thorn in the side, which is good. It gives challenge to an otherwise boring experience. He's also managed to put a check on rampant griefing, which is good. Rampant griefing reduces targets for raiders to hit. Less targets, less raiding, more boring. Face facts. I don't know about some raiders out there, but I raid for the battle. Fighting to get, fighting to keep the regions I take. I hate sitting two or more days, getting my sorry tail out of bed for the midday UD, only for nothing to happen. (Hence what prompts native kicking.......)

All that said. I come to my last point: As some may remember from the Repeal: Commend 10KI 'discussion' (sodding contest more like...) I'd said I frowned on commending a region for invading/defending, but encouraged the commending of nations involved on either side for exemplary work in their respective areas.

I'd rather commend each member of the RFN over Sedge, especially for the exceptional amount of sportsmanship they've shown on the field, but I cannot take away that Sedge has indeed been a mentionable defender.

And yes. I'm actually sober, as well as surprised i just praised him. That is all.

*Edit: Topid. You said you were commending one from each side, I hope Todd wasn't the raider side, because that's just weak. He hasn't been an active raider in ages, and, no disrespect to him, but Fox Rite didn't exactly revolutionize raiding, so.... I'm guessing you're still writing that one, or just laying smogwork.

[Anime Daisuki]

I don't say he is a true defender because he only works with people he likes. If he doesn't like you, even as a defender, he will not work with you, which is completely unprofessional as FRA Arch Chancellor and uncivil. If he had any sense of humanity or humility, he would work with EVERY DEFENDER, both who he DOES LIKE and DOES NOT LIKE, and work with them and show proper respect and civility towards them. If he can't even learn these basic concepts of human civil behaviour he doesn't have any right to be a defender, much less be in the I-D game.

Not in my experience. I don't always agree with Sedge, since we are from different organizations. But as far as I recall we always had a civil working relationship.

[Govindia]

Gov, you say he isn't a true defender because he refuses to work with people he dislikes? Are you kidding me? Are you really this dense?

You claim that the defender creed has something to do with working with everybody? Are you nuts? How many defenders have banned you from working with them again?

He won't work with you the same reason we all won't work with you. You can't be trusted, or relied upon to be professional.

If anyone doubts my words about Gov, perhaps you should ask him yourself, how many defender armies have told him no, outright banned him, kicked him out ect.

Hell ask him how many regions he has been banned from. How many IRC channels has he been banned from?

Need I say more?

I actually can be trusted and relied upon to be professional. If you can't learn to work with me, or any other defender, it's your own fault. You have no right to say you're professional and then refuse to work with me because you can't understand how to be respectful or civil like any other reasonable human being would be.

The only reason I've been banned from certain IRC channels is people's inability to have interpersonal skills and react and behave in a civil manner without flamebaiting others who they do not like.

You like Sedge, fail to show any respect or civility or sportsmanship, unlike people in the Royal Federation of Nations.

If you claim to be professional and reasonable, then I expect you to work with me and every other defender, and get your personal feelings about them out of the mess. If you can't, then you're not a true defender. True defenders put personal feelings aside and treat each other with respect and civility at all times. If you can't do that, you are NOT a defender, period.

And Topid, I suggest that you listen to both sides of the story, instead of hearing from just one side.

I don't say he is a true defender because he only works with people he likes. If he doesn't like you, even as a defender, he will not work with you, which is completely unprofessional as FRA Arch Chancellor and uncivil. If he had any sense of humanity or humility, he would work with EVERY DEFENDER, both who he DOES LIKE and DOES NOT LIKE, and work with them and show proper respect and civility towards them. If he can't even learn these basic concepts of human civil behaviour he doesn't have any right to be a defender, much less be in the I-D game.

Not in my experience. I don't always agree with Sedge, since we are from different organizations. But as far as I recall we always had a civil working relationship.

When he calls a defender someone that he has as much respect for as raiders, i.e. none, as he put it, then you know that's not being civil or respectful towards defenders . That's not even showing good sportsmanship at all towards the other side.

As I said, there are much better and more respected defenders in this game that are far more deserving of a commendation than Sedge should.

I am not perfect either, but at least I know when something like this is completely uncalled for and overly biased.

[A mean old man]

The only reason I've been banned from certain IRC channels is people's inability to have interpersonal skills and react and behave in a civil manner without flamebaiting others who they do not like.

You like Sedge, fail to show any respect or civility or sportsmanship, unlike people in the Royal Federation of Nations.

This sounds like a past verbal scuffle. How dull; I thought we'd hear a vivid tale of betrayal and revenge.

True defenders put personal feelings aside and treat each other with respect and civility at all times. If you can't do that, you are NOT a defender, period.

Not necessarily. It just means you're not a very socially adept person.

[Govindia]

Socially adept or not, during missions where you have to work with defenders in multiple groups, you have to put personal feelings aside for the sake of the mission, and work together.

Just like in the military IRL or in a job IRL, when you're working in a team, or in a squad, you have to put personal animosities aside and work together and treat each other with courtesy and respect. People that act otherwise in the military or in the office work place IRL will not last long and I speak from personal experience so I know well what I speak of.

[A mean old man]

Sedge has "lasted" for a while.

Whatever his personal flaws are or whatever your apparently particularly unpleasant history with him is, it doesn't detract from what he has accomplished.

However, this resolution...

[Whamabama]

Isn't this commend Sedge? Or is it, Everybody who won't work with Gov is unprofessional, and an asshole?

Ok Gov you don't like Sedge, deal with it, that's your problem. It has nothing to do with this commendation. Your unfounded accusations about me (Which is very false by the way) is totally irrelevant to this discussion. This isn't about your opinion of me, or me at all. I didn't write it, and I am not Sedge.

I said what I said, simply because it is relevant, as it shows why you are saying what you are. You don't like Sedge, as he booted you from his organization. Same as other organizations have countless times. That is also relevant to show others that perhaps the problem isn't Sedge at all.

That being said. On to the real issue at hand.

I think Sedge does deserve this commendation. I have known Sedge to be very easy to work with. Very polite, even when we personally didn't agree on a certain subject. Very professional, and knowledgeable in his job. Working, talking, and associating with Sedge has been an honor, and a privilege. I have never been in the same region, or organization as Sedge, but working with the regions, organizations Sedge has been a member of was immensely easy because of him.

[A mean old man]

I think Sedge does deserve this commendation.

I tend to doubt he deserves this one in particular. Something much better could have been written without the private, secret drafting of this proposal (EDIT: resolution, now - proposal then).

[Whamabama]

I tend to doubt he deserves this one in particular. Something much better could have been written without the private, secret drafting of this proposal (EDIT: resolution, now - proposal then).

hmmm, I have not personally dealt to much in the drafting portion of any resolution/proposal. I don't see anything glaringly wrong with this one. I suppose it could be written better, I guess most things can be. More stuff here, less there ect.

Though I think I can see your point in wanting a go at the drafting process. That being said, I would ask, while not perfect in your eyes, or perhaps horrible if that is the case. Is it, to you worth voting for?

[Kalibarr]

Govinda, Most people don't like you, it's not something unique to sedge...

[Govindia]

This resolution should not be passed.

Sedge, while serving the FRA, his record as a defender isn't what SCRs should be for. The FRA have awards for that and if he earned them, then great. It doesn't mean he should get a SCR.

The FRA's purpose isn't to ensure interregional peace and goodwill as it is to protect founderless regions from invaders. If he wanted interregional peace and goodwill than wouldn't it mean acting neutral, not as a defender, trying to find peace between both the defenders and invaders of this game? Or at least if not peace, but promoting good sportsmanship?

Much of his work, while notable in terms of accomplishments, is nothing more than a short description of his FRA career. While I understand people want to commend him for the work he's done, this resolution is not properly written with thought onto his work overall in the game, as opposed to merely describing his FRA record.

[A mean old man]

Though I think I can see your point in wanting a go at the drafting process. That being said, I would ask, while not perfect in your eyes, or perhaps horrible if that is the case. Is it, to you worth voting for?

Unfortunately, nay. I've seen a commendation of Sedge coming for a while, and had always thought it would be a rather long, detailed, and impressive resolution. Sedge is one of the strongest representatives of the defender world to those of his own kind and to the rest of us here in the world and the WA, and his accomplishments are many and cover many different fields (regionbuilding - a personal favorite field of mine, defending - which covers the WA military activity involved, foreign affairs representation/management, and the organization of his... organization, WASC legislation writing, and more which elude my memory at the moment). My personal expectation, as far as his commendation goes, was hardly met by what I have seen in this proposal. The wording is weak, the information is unclear, there are multiple aspects of Sedge's career and multiple important contributions and accomplishments of his left out. This was a commendation which I thought was going to be one of the most important of the time, and it has been carried out with this lame, unsatisfactory piece of writing.

What are my proposed solutions to this problem?

I have nothing against the idea of commending Sedge, however I would like for this motion to be defeated or repealed if it passes (preferably in a fashion that avoided accusations... actually, if the authors of this could agree to the repeal and agree to do another drafting in these forums, then put some time into it while considering the opinions of those here who would like to participate, that would be the best situation - though that might be a pipe dream). Most of you can figure out why from my previous posts. Unibot and I have had a chat and I believe he has a better understanding of my feelings towards this now, as well.

I'd be happy to work out a friendly repeal on this one with the authors and in these forums - note the word friendly. Nothing like my last... well, you get my point. That one wasn't pulled together with discretion in mind.

The resolution, from what I understand, was drafted between Topid, Unibot, and a few FRA members. Why do I have such a problem with the resolution being drafted in secret between only a few privately chosen people?

This quote has been edited slightly, as it was sent in a personal telegram. Apologies for posting a private message in the public forums, as I know some have had bad experiences with me on those lines in the past, however this argument isn't anything particularly private or incriminating. It's a well-formulated argument that I don't want to waste time re-writing.

The thing about [a small group of] defenders with the same ideology all building a resolution on their own is that there is no one to play devil's advocate, no one to question their use of words or quality of information. It is also very possible that [one] will miss details that could strengthen and perfect the writing, as has happened with this lame commendation. Everyone is going easy on each other in [this] system. While [one] might enjoy that environment, [one needs] to recognize that the opinions and ideologies of others are important for the construction of well-rounded proposals (actually, they’re important for the construction of nearly everything that involves the coming together of people of different ideologies) No, I'm not saying this only because I want a say in the drafting of the proposal; there are plenty of proposals drafted in the NSWA forums that I don't get involved in the drafting of that I will still support. Others have done the work already, and multiple ideologies have usually clashed, have come to some sort of agreements, and have improved the quality of their work. I know [some might not] think that the opinions of [certain] raiders are of any use and think that [some raiders] will oppose it simply because it’s a defender being commended, however I beg to differ. Look at Oh my Days, for example. There are still raiders out there (and people who aren’t raiders [...]) who will support something and try to help with something if it’s well justified. And a commendation of Sedge is very well justified, but this resolution barely shows that.

A vote for this resolution would support this unsatisfactory form of drafting. The WASC is not for surprise parties; it's for long-thought-out, quality work. This is not how quality work is made.

[Founder of Mongolia]

I'd rather commend each member of the RFN over Sedge, especially for the exceptional amount of sportsmanship they've shown on the field, but I cannot take away that Sedge has indeed been a mentionable defender.

And yes. I'm actually sober, as well as surprised i just praised him. That is all.

Awww thanks Savaer. The payment is in the post But seriously we try to be as Civil as possible. I agree with a lot of your sentiments, and... although it won't please a lot of defenders but I don't really see a moral high ground for defending. In some cases, a raid has kicked started a region back into life and actually helped it. But I'll do my utmost to stop a raid, as that is part of the fun of the Raider/Defender game. If a raider has contributed enough to their side of the game, and acted in a civil manner at all times to both natives and raiders alike then I don't see why a raider doesn't equally deserve a commendation. (waits to be beaten by his fellow defenders ) Anyway that is diverging from the point back to Sedge.

In regards to the actual FRA points, Sedge has participated in 167 separate missions. Not all were successful, but the vast majority were. I imagine most of those failed missions were liberations involving yourself, Savaer lol. That is a feet which is hard to match, and I wager not even matched by Falconias who's participated in 164 separate missions. (points are awarded for spotting, participating and being a lead defender, meaning you can gain 3 points maximum for each mission, accounting for Falconias having more points)

I'll try keep it short. Sedge is one of the most friendliest defenders I know and has been helpful throughout my time as a defender. He may not always agree with things I believe/say and likewise I don't don't agree with some of his beliefs. Nonetheless he has been one of the most successful defenders in the game and I'd be happy to give him a commendation on these grounds alone... However, he has been one of the pioneers of the 'modern' pioneers of this game in recent years something this resolution doesn't make clear.

His involvement in the SC has been of the highest standard, despite opposition, from certain quarters, he has shaped and pioneered the way in which the World Assembly (now the Security Council) operates. A feet unparalleled by any other player in the game currently, at least in my opinion. In an establishment that regardless of what people say, at the very least TRIES to be neutral, and with his clear defender loyalties that is a VERY hard task. And at the end of the day, if you claim that the whole of the security council is 'infested with defenders' the resolution still has to be passed by facing the vote of everyone who is in the World Assembly. Whether that shows there is more defenders out there than raiders is your personal opinion and something that shouldn't be brought up in this discussion, but if you honestly ask me, I'd say there were more defender leading neutrals than raiders and defenders combined.

Sedge's involvement in regions such as GRA has been exceptional to say the least. You only have to look at the regional population jump to see this. But recruiting isn't everything, it needs to be combined with being an all round statesmen and politician. Thankfully Sedge is equipped with such talent having held a plethora of jobs in multiple regions, showing he can work with just about anyone in just about any situation, throughout his time in NS. You'll have to find someone else to list them all it's too late for me to do that He has also been involved in a number of defensive organisations most notably the FRA, where he has held key roles throughout his time as a defender.

He has revolutionised the way in which the defender game operates and has been a key figure in our success. Whether you dislike the entire defender/raider game or not, it is irrelevant. It is a huge area of gameplay in nationstates and will hopefully remain here for another few years to come.

The question we should be asking, does one of the main characters in this aspect of the game deserve a commendation?

For me it is yes. But does he deserve this commendation? Then the answer is no, as it doesn't do him justice, or show the true facts or honour his key achievements.

And gov: this is neither the place nor the time. He is a defender regardless of if he wants to work with you or not, his countless missions have shown that.

Wopruthien, head of Royal Federation of Nations military and Chief of Defence for the FRA. (yes i'm completely biased, but everything I said I fervently believe)

[A mean old man]

If only much of that could have been included in this resolution.