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FAILED: Condemn Grub [Official Topic]

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:14 am
by Daynor
Greetings!

The nation of Grub has long criticized raiders for their practices. Meanwhile, Grub keeps this little secret shoved deep the closet. I think it is time we hold Grub to the same moral standards he has held others to for years.


SECURITY COUNCIL

Image Condemn Grub
A resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region.

Category: Condemnation | Nominee: Grub | Proposed by: Daynor

Description:
The World Assembly,

DEFINING a region crasher as a nation which attacks a region with the intent to utterly destroy the community,

ASSERTING that region crashing is not only a threat to the natives of the region, but also to those raiders who do not crash regions, because it eliminates one founderless region from the game,

DEFINING an empire builder as a nation who attacks a region in order to plant its own region’s name on the World Factbook Entry of the target region,

ASSERTING that empire builders embarrass and harass the natives of a region, and often end up crashing the target region,

NOTING that Grub behaved as both a region crasher and an empire builder while carrying out the abominations in Empire of Power,

SHOCKED that Grub attacked and destroyed the region Empire of Power because of a personal grudge,

OUTRAGED that Empire of Power, a region with over 175 members, was destroyed by such cruel and unjust practices,

HORRIFIED that Grub has held Empire of Power prisoner for over six years,

SICKENED by the bragging and gloating present on the Regional Message Board and World Factbook Entry designed to harass the former natives,

ANGERED that Grub has created an army of ‘defenders’ to prevent others from committing the same atrocities the nation of Grub has committed,

RECOGNIZING that by creating this army, Grub is admitting the monstrous offenses committed in Empire of Power were undoubtedly wrong,

OBSERVING that Grub has done nothing to atone for its actions, or remedy the situation by giving the region back to its former natives,

CONDEMNS the nation of Grub for its part in the wicked destruction and immoral occupation of Empire of Power.


Thank you to all of the delegates who approved my proposal! We couldn’t have gotten here if it was not for you! I know that delegates who put their name on this proposal were harassed by desperate defenders to abandon the proposal, and many did. Thank you to those who stayed!

And a special thanks to Aegara of Grand Central, Lyn of Unknown, and Bisarius of Unknown, who really went above and beyond with telegramming. We wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for their help! Thanks! (And thanks to anyone who contacted delegates that I don’t know about!)

Previous Thread (Let's try to keep this one more on topic! This is important, though I understand how hard/boring it is when the topic has been discussed for several days.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:23 am
by Goobergunchia
I'd like to submit some information regarding the region Empire of Power from the archives.

The highest population on record for "Empire of Power" is 126, not the 175 claimed in the resolution. This peak was recorded on 7 August 2003.

Furthermore, the region was on a gradual decline since late 2003. On 21 October, the region had 66 members. By 23 November, the last day on record that the region had a Delegate, its population had fallen to 23. Jumping forward to 27 January 2004, the region had a mere 6 members, falling to 3 by 1 February, 2 by 22 February, and 1 by 6 March. While somebody else moved into the region by 6 May, the population had falling back to 1 by 27 June. It never rose again before the region eventually ceased to exist and was refounded by Grub on 19 October 2004.

A snapshot of the region on 11 December 2003 can be found via the Internet Archive. Sadly, they didn't have anything from 2004.

For a more detailed view of the fall of Empire of Power from its peak, check out the following data:

20030807 empire_of_power 126 galabrinz
20030812 empire_of_power 116 mattatonn
20030817 empire_of_power 121 mattatonn
20030819 empire_of_power 71 mattatonn
20030823 empire_of_power 111 mattatonn
20030829 empire_of_power 99 mattatonn
20030901 empire_of_power 99 mattatonn
20030905 empire_of_power 103 mattatonn
20030910 empire_of_power 43 mattatonn
20030913 empire_of_power 42 mattatonn
20030920 empire_of_power 45 fildo
20030924 empire_of_power 46 fildo
20030927 empire_of_power 5 --None--
20031003 empire_of_power 39 st_jordan
20031007 empire_of_power 44 st_jordan
20031011 empire_of_power 50 st_jordan
20031014 empire_of_power 62 st_jordan
20031018 empire_of_power 59 st_jordan
20031021 empire_of_power 66 st_jordan
20031025 empire_of_power 66 st_jordan
20031030 empire_of_power 57 st_jordan
20031101 empire_of_power 54 st_jordan
20031105 empire_of_power 46 nutters_and_co
20031108 empire_of_power 38 nutters_and_co
20031110 empire_of_power 34 nutters_and_co
20031112 empire_of_power 29 nutters_and_co
20031115 empire_of_power 29 nutters_and_co
20031119 empire_of_power 24 nutters_and_co
20031123 empire_of_power 23 nutters_and_co
20031128 empire_of_power 17 --None--
20031202 empire_of_power 17 --None--
20031205 empire_of_power 14 --None--
20031208 empire_of_power 12 --None--
20031212 empire_of_power 11 --None--
20031217 empire_of_power 7 --None--
20031227 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040102 empire_of_power 0 --None--
20040104 empire_of_power 6 --None--
20040108 empire_of_power 7 --None--
20040110 empire_of_power 7 --None--
20040113 empire_of_power 7 --None--
20040117 empire_of_power 8 --None--
20040118 empire_of_power 8 --None--
20040120 empire_of_power 8 --None--
20040123 empire_of_power 8 --None--
20040125 empire_of_power 8 --None--
20040127 empire_of_power 6 --None--
20040130 empire_of_power 6 --None--
20040201 empire_of_power 3 --None--
20040203 empire_of_power 3 --None--
20040207 empire_of_power 3 --None--
20040210 empire_of_power 3 --None--
20040214 empire_of_power 3 --None--
20040217 empire_of_power 3 --None--
20040222 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040224 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040229 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040306 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040312 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040315 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040318 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040320 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040328 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040329 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040402 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040405 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040410 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040414 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040418 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040421 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040425 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040430 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040502 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040506 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040512 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040519 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040525 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040531 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040607 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040613 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040620 empire_of_power 2 --None--
20040627 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040705 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040711 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040715 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040721 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040728 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040801 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040807 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040815 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040821 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040825 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040902 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040907 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040917 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040924 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20040929 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20041007 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20041010 empire_of_power 1 --None--
20041017 empire_of_power 1 --None--


I hope to be able to provide this as a graph soonish. Watch this space. :)

Additionally, a first-hand account by a former member of EoP was given in the previous thread:

Emperor Matthuis wrote:Having been nudged, although the proposal seems set to fail I will try to clarify a few points. The Empire of Power's original founder Mattanonn was a talented guy but every so often would grief the region for no apparent reason. Each time he would refound it, but obviously this was damaging the region as fewer people came back each time. I had joined the region for a short while, and on one of these griefings refounded it for myself. I then started running the region 'properly' again until I left the game. But the region after I left deteriorated until it was refounded by some EoP natives who stayed there for ages. Then for some reason, maybe Grub's persuasion, they too then left the region or died off so he refounded it. The EoP had long since died-off since Grub refounded it, so I don't think morally there is anything dubious about his actions.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:35 am
by Klaus Devestatorie
Ironically, this comes from Nasicournia. So I don't believe anything.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:54 am
by Grub
Daynor wrote:"The nation of Grub has long criticized raiders for their practices. Meanwhile, Grub keeps this little secret shoved deep the closet."


The Empire of Power is no secret! They attacked us, we defended ourselves and defeated the bullies who wished to destroy our region.

Grub

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:10 am
by Ananke
Basically, what this proposal comes down to, if you disregard the false accusations of region griefing (which in this proposal seem to be conflated with region crashing), is condemning someone for refounding a region after it ceased to exist naturally.

Since I'm sure most of us has done that at one point or another I don't see why we should condemn Grub for it.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:23 am
by Janet Dobinson
Ananke wrote:Basically, what this proposal comes down to, if you disregard the false accusations of region griefing (which in this proposal seem to be conflated with region crashing), is condemning someone for refounding a region after it ceased to exist naturally.

Since I'm sure most of us has done that at one point or another I don't see why we should condemn Grub for it.


Because he evidently only refounded the region so he could crudely and distastefully gloat on the RMB. Add to that a password, and bob's your uncle.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:52 am
by New Olwe
Janet Dobinson wrote:Because he evidently only refounded the region so he could crudely and distastefully gloat on the RMB. Add to that a password, and bob's your uncle.


I don't see what my Uncle Bob has to do with this. He doesn't even have a NationStates account.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:53 am
by Namabia
Grub is innocent. Just because one person gets upset doesn't mean we have to take this all the way to the WA.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:57 am
by New Olwe
Namabia wrote:Grub is innocent. Just because one person gets upset doesn't mean we have to take this all the way to the WA.


About 3/4 of all WA proposals are made because somebody's upset about something. Most of the issues addressed here could be better resolved by simply asking, "Do you want some cheese with that whine?"

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:00 am
by Namabia
True

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:01 am
by Wutaco
Empire of Power is only one of the regions TITO has destroyed. Come on Grub, do you really believe that you can get away with destroying raider regions in the name of defense for all these years? Empire of Power was just the most notable example. Im sure there are still some raiders out there who lost their region to you, they're just scared shitless to come out and say it becuase you would attack them again.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:05 am
by New Olwe
Ooh, Wutaco's here. Wait, let me get my feet up... don't want to get any of this bullshit on my shoes.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:21 am
by Charlotte Ryberg
From the honoured ambassador's point of view, I cannot determine our position on this resolution because there is very conflicting and inconclusive evidence on either side. I have initially decided to vote against: not because either side of the argument was better, but because more time is needed to look into the case before a good conclusion can be made.

Yours etc,

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:24 am
by Unibotian WASC Mission
I've voted aganist. The evidence has prevailed in proving most of the points of this proposal wrong, and no one deserves to be condemned on the basis of erroneous facts.

At the moment, I can only agree with this portion of the text..

HORRIFIED that Grub has held Empire of Power prisoner for over six years,

SICKENED by the bragging and gloating present on the Regional Message Board and World Factbook Entry designed to harass and torment the former natives,

OBSERVING that Grub has done nothing to atone for its actions, or remedy the situation by giving the region back to its former natives,

CONDEMNS the nation of Grub for its part in the wicked destruction and immoral occupation of Empire of Power.


.. and a portion just isn't enough to sway my vote.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:40 am
by Mad Sheep Railgun
Drama! Image

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:49 am
by Eciolp
How can anyone in one sentence say that more needs to me know about a situation and then in another sentence say that is why I am voting against. If you don't have all the information needed to then your vote is wasted. Who is to say that later on when yu get all the information you see that a vote for might have been the one you would have chosen. I don't care which way people vote, but really voting and saying its because you don't know enough about the subject. What a waste.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:51 am
by Philimbesi
After careful consideration, and applying my C&C vote scoring rubric, I must cast my vote against this proposal, on the grounds that

There is something better in the queue (-75 Points)
The word raider is found in the text once (-20 Points)
The word defender is found in the text once (-20 points)

therefore the over all score is below 0 and I must vote against.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:25 pm
by Flibbleites
Janet Dobinson wrote:
Ananke wrote:Basically, what this proposal comes down to, if you disregard the false accusations of region griefing (which in this proposal seem to be conflated with region crashing), is condemning someone for refounding a region after it ceased to exist naturally.

Since I'm sure most of us has done that at one point or another I don't see why we should condemn Grub for it.


Because he evidently only refounded the region so he could crudely and distastefully gloat on the RMB. Add to that a password, and bob's your uncle.

Why am I being dragged into this, as far as I'm concerned the SC doesn't even exist.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:47 pm
by Sedgistan
Flibbleites wrote:Why am I being dragged into this, as far as I'm concerned the SC doesn't even exist.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative


So who are you talking to? :P

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:57 pm
by Yelda
Sedgistan wrote:
Flibbleites wrote:Why am I being dragged into this, as far as I'm concerned the SC doesn't even exist.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative


So who are you talking to? :P


Spoken to a random staffer that has wandered in and started watching The World Assembly with him.

"You know this is one of the aspects of the show that I enjoy the most. Some of the participants are pretending to be ambassadors in a wacky parody of an international organization, and some of them are pretending to be regular people playing a nation simulation game. Then they start talking to each other...

It's like, meta-comedy! I love it!"

Quynn Olver
Foreign Minister

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:06 pm
by Unibotian WASC Mission
Yelda wrote:
Sedgistan wrote:
Flibbleites wrote:Why am I being dragged into this, as far as I'm concerned the SC doesn't even exist.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative


So who are you talking to? :P


Spoken to a random staffer that has wandered in and started watching The World Assembly with him.

"You know this is one of the aspects of the show that I enjoy the most. Some of the participants are pretending to be ambassadors in a wacky parody of an international organization, and some of them are pretending to be regular people playing a nation simulation game. Then they start talking to each other...

It's like, meta-comedy! I love it!"

Quynn Olver
Foreign Minister


"Did you hear the producers are given the Security Council its own spin-off show?" piped in, TV guideholic, Doris Festerbrook.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:59 pm
by The Ambrose Islands
Philimbesi wrote:After careful consideration, and applying my C&C vote scoring rubric, I must cast my vote against this proposal, on the grounds that

There is something better in the queue (-75 Points)
The word raider is found in the text once (-20 Points)
The word defender is found in the text once (-20 points)

therefore the over all score is below 0 and I must vote against.


Bingo.

Just a suggestion, how about if the WA votes on an issue of actual MERIT instead of fighting in the CondemNation Wars?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:27 pm
by Yelda
Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:
Yelda wrote:
Sedgistan wrote:
Flibbleites wrote:Why am I being dragged into this, as far as I'm concerned the SC doesn't even exist.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative


So who are you talking to? :P


Spoken to a random staffer that has wandered in and started watching The World Assembly with him.

"You know this is one of the aspects of the show that I enjoy the most. Some of the participants are pretending to be ambassadors in a wacky parody of an international organization, and some of them are pretending to be regular people playing a nation simulation game. Then they start talking to each other...

It's like, meta-comedy! I love it!"

Quynn Olver
Foreign Minister


"Did you hear the producers are given the Security Council its own spin-off show?" piped in, TV guideholic, Doris Festerbrook.


"I'll probably record those episodes. Rumor has it they'll be airing opposite Mister Jones' new prime time variety show Look who's gettin' mauled by Jonesy! and I wouldn't want to miss that", the Foreign Minister replies to the TV guideholic who has inexplicably appeared in his office.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:55 pm
by Vatiel
OOC: On an entirely different note, if this is really such a problem to the former Empire of Power natives, what's stopping them from founding a new Region called the 'New Empire of Power', 'Empire of Power, Take Two', or my personal favorite 'The REAL Empire of Power'? No need to get the WA involved. Get revenge by living well, I say. *shrug*

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:51 pm
by Janet Dobinson
Vatiel wrote:OOC: On an entirely different note, if this is really such a problem to the former Empire of Power natives, what's stopping them from founding a new Region called the 'New Empire of Power', 'Empire of Power, Take Two', or my personal favorite 'The REAL Empire of Power'? No need to get the WA involved. Get revenge by living well, I say. *shrug*


'The Region Formerly Known as'...Na, it wouldn't fit.